I can just speak esp. from experience. When I was still a kid, we had a refridgerator with Freon in it. And it worked well. You just put your hand in it, and it was like you were in the Arctic.
Then about 20 years ago, we got a new refridgerator. And it was nowhere as good as the one with Freon. You put your hand in it, and it felt warm! It couldn’t cool at all. In fact, the best it could do was maybe 50°F on a cold day.
Then there was the airconditioner we also got about 20 years ago. My mother had an ostomy appliance. And she needed her bedroom to be cool, lest the adhesive come undone, and the appliance leak. But the a/c unit they got (c. 20 yrs. ago) was horrible. I think it made the room warmer! In any event, it certainly didn’t have the power to cool. And we did have many a/c’s with Freon. So we knew the difference.
So taking into account my experiences at least, why is it so hard to find refridgerants as good as Freon? And will this change some day?
Freon is a brand name for a variety of standard refrigerant gases. You could recharge your system with, for example, any brandname R-12 gas, and get the same result.
Newer gases used for refrigerant are just as good as the old ones, but more expensive to produce. The reason for switching was the theory that some refrigerant gases were culpable in reducing the ozone layer around the poles of the earth. So many years after switching, I’m not so sure they have proved the theory, but that’s just the way it is.
Today’s refrigerants are just as good as the old ones, just more expensive to produce. Manufacturers are also under the gun to produce appliances that are more efficient, and so the appliances, with more complicated construction, are more expensive, as well.
Trying to recharge old systems with the new gases will result in very poor performance.
I believe the old units used R-22, the newer ones a different one maybe R 132a or something, though I think the R-132a is primarily for automotive use (formerly and replacement for R - 12), so there may be another one for hom e a/c use. So there has been a change in the type of refrigerant used, and especially for auto use the new stuff is not as good as the old, so newer cars have stronger a/c’s to compensate. I don’t know if that is the same for home use however.
There has been a great push in a/c efficiency which just due to how things work may lead to more gentle cooling. I do believe it is more efficient to get the coil temperatures a few degrees cooler then the air you wish to cool and cycle more air through, then supercool the coils and blow out lost of very cold air. I think that would be the bigger culprit.
Also ammonia based systems I think still outperform most other refrigerants, though can be hazardous if they leak, so used in industrial applications instead of home ones (um yeah that makes sense )
I suppose my first comment will show up anon. To add to it, the switchover to different halogenated flourocarbons has been very successful, but the results are obeying the law of unintended consequences…the new materials are powerful molecules for promoting global warming, 10000 times as influential as carbon dioxide, for example.
Ammonia and Propane are both products that could be used for refrigeration systems. Each has a very significant obvious drawback – flammability.
Every fridge I’ve come across had a functional freezer compartment (i.e. cold enough to freeze food). So I have to question your assertion that there was a point in time where you couldn’t buy a refrigerator that got as cold as older refrigerators.
Perhaps you used to set the temperature control in your old fridge really low, and newer ones have a more limited control range (perhaps to prevent you from accidentally freezing food in the refrigerator compartment)?
Adding to this muddle is the fact that more and more HVAC technicians are scam artists. Garages with equipment for checking A/C systems on vehicles are usually just trying to sell a new compressor or condenser for mucho dinero. I took one in with a leak and they wanted $1200 to fix. Then I looked at it myself and found a leaking connection easily fixed. Same thing when they try to diagnose emission system woes. Big bucks to fix, but the problem is usually a loose hose or bad gas cap.
Since you know so much about, I would suggest you go into the auto AC and emission control repair business.
You obviously could under cut our prices since we are all scam artists. The public will beat a path to your door. You will be rich!
Getting back to the OP the new fridges I am familiar with get plenty cold. Same with home AC units.
On the automotive from R12 (freon) has been replaced by R134 (brand name Suva). 134 is not quite as efficient as 12 but the systems have been redesigned as a result.
In the next model year or so 134 will be replaced by R1234. 1234 has less global warming potential than 134 which had less than R12.
Since you know so much about, I would suggest you go into the auto AC and emission control repair business.
You obviously could under cut our prices since we are all scam artists. The public will beat a path to your door. You will be rich!
I suspect you are just as pizzed off at the scammers, probably more so, than am I. I know to avoid them but many folks don’t.
I’d be just as likely to start selling used cars as to get into the HVAC business. I did work for an honest HVAC man for a few years whenever he needed something heavy lifted…and we got to be good friends. I do know whereof I speak, there are a whole bunch of scam artists in the HVAC trade, and, of course, in almost every other trade. But I’ve met a lot of tradesmen I trusted from experience with them and by reputation. Good, honest work is worth every penny you pay for it.
Twenty years ago it would have used the same refrigerant as older systems. And it seems everyone else in the world with a late-model refrigerator finds that it gets really cold. Did it really never occur to you that your problem was with that appliance, not with the type of refrigerant in it?
And again it would have used the same refrigerant as older systems. Now here’s an amazing fact – there’s more than one type of window unit! It’s possible (and has been for decades) to get one that’s too small to cool the room in question. There are probably a half-dozen possible reasons that the unit you describe didn’t do the job that have nothing to do with the type of refrigerant in it.
There are some requirements for refrigerants – boiling point, heat capacity, etc. – that were beautifully, and cheaply, met by the HFC’s that are being (or have been) phased out. Chances are we won’t anything just as good in all respects because no such thing exists. Note, however, that freezers still keep stuff frozen, refrigerators (except for yours) still keep food cold, automobile A/C still keeps folks cool, etc. We have refrigerants that are more than adequate.
Your experience doesn’t demonstrate a problem with modern refrigerants. It demonstrates a problem with the selection, operation method, or condition of the particular units you had.
Really? Shops with the necessary tools to do the job properly are usually just scamming for selling expensive components? I think it’s wonderful that you have such widespread experience and knowledge about this that you know what most repair facilities are trying to do.
And garages without such equipment – are they just supposed to magically know what repair is needed for all the different vehicles and problems that they run across? Because obviously you don’t to take your car somewhere that is properly equipped – they’re likely to scam you, right?
That sounds like an incompetent or dishonest shop. How fortunate for us that this one incident allows us to judge every other shop out there. :rolleyes:
People. There are too many comments off-topic here. Most of them have nothing to help refute the OP. (Thanks, Gary T–your first post did the right thing. Your second post just carried the topic off)
Let’s stick to the subject of the OP. I understand it’s hard to let opinions and generalizations stand unanswered, but let’s try.
Nitpick
R12 is not necessarly Freon. It is Freon if made by DuPont. Otherwise it is Refrigerent 12.
Oh yes as to the OP. Sounds like there is a fault with the units you are complaining about. My new frig cold box holds 38 degrees, freezer section holds 0 degrees fine.
DuPont sold both R12 and R22 under the Freon name. R12 was used in automotive and home A/C units and R22 was mainly used in commercial refrigeration and freezer units. Both R12 and R22 were very bad for the ozone layer. Modern refrigerants are much better, along with better practices of evacuating systems instead of blowing off gases, at protecting the environment.
That said some modern cheep refrigerators have poor designs that only cool the freezer section and have only a small vent into the refrigerator section. These vents can clog up with ice and keep cold air from circulating properly. Many people will try to save money by buying air conditioners that are underrated for the load they will be handling. This results in higher operating cost and insufficient cooling. Spending more up front for properly rated* equipment saves money in the long run and keeps temps where they need to be.
*Both tonnage and energy star ratings.
HVAC technicians should all be required to join an association that holds their feet to the fire for honesty.
Truly, the people performing the work are not the only problem. Bear with me. People often get or buy an insurance policy when they buy a house. Typical is for the A/C to begin to fail within the covered period. Technicians come in and are instructed by their company not to fix the leak (if that is the problem), but to simply recharge the system to get it ‘working’ again. then, when it quits again, they come back and inform the home owner that the first call was free, yes, but after that, all work is at full price…they replace the leaking heat exchanger, or etc., and the home owner feels like they have been pronged.
I once had an older car that had a very slow leak. My strategy was to recharge the system, using gauges, every 6 months or so, and it was good enough for the needs. Then, I went on a long trip and didn’t take my tools along. The A/C stopped working, so I dropped by the first station that said they did A/C work. I explained to the mechanic that he should simply recharge the system and I’d be good to go. He decided that if I was such a cheapskate, he’d not bother to use gauges, and proceeded to add so much juice that the safety popped on the compressor, scaring the bejesus out of him. I told him he had added too much and that he needed to drain some back to get to the best performance point for the system. He refused, claiming I had ‘set him up’ and they would hold the car until I paid their $200 service fee. (We had previously agreed on time and materials, about $50). I called the cops, the owner stepped in and released the car to me for a payment of $100. I went down the street to another shop, explained to the man there what happened, asked to borrow his gauges…he said, ‘no, I’ll do it for you.’ Which he did, draining off almost a pound of R. Then he refused to accept payment (I went and bought the crew there two dozen doughnuts), while agreeing with me that many people in the trade were incompetent at best, crooks at worst.
Trade associations should hold their members to high standards if they want people to respect them.
Not as easy, no, but Ammonia will burn in a range of 16 to 25% in air. A company I worked for had a bad ammonia refrigeration fire killing an employee in the 1950’s.
Every gas can provide ‘refrigeration’ if you compress it and then expand it through an orifice. Most gases so used would cost a lot of money for power to gain the refrigeration you need. Engineers study the charts for different gases to see which of them can provide the most change of state refrigeration at the lowest external input of power. The newest house A/C units have cycles so complex that many techs now consider them impossible to repair and are, instead, throw away units, even though their cost originally is so much higher than the older, less efficient units that could be easily diagnosed and repaired.
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