Crap, I had to screw up the quote tags. I’m about as effective as an NFC North offense. :smack:
Miller, could you answer a question for me: is it possible to for someone to not approve of homosexuality and not be hateful? Seriously, I’m not trying to goad you. It just seems to be that while White may have held views that we might not agree with, I certainly don’t get the idea that he was hateful. Are you aware of things that he said that have not been posted?
It’s a fair question, and I do think it’s absolutely possible. I know of several posters on this board who feel that homosexuality is sinful, but could not reasonably be called homophobes. Bricker and FriarTed both spring to mind, and both are posters I greatly admire.
However, I do believe that the idea that “homosexuality is sinful” is inherently hateful. This does not make everyone who holds that belief a hateful person. The degree to which a person puts this belief into practice is what counts, to me. White, from what I’m seeing here, actively campaigned against gay rights.* To me, that crosses the line into actively hateful, even if it’s couched in terms of compassion.
Again, taken as a whole, I’d say that White was a good man, though not great. His views on race and sexuality are too significant a flaw for that. On the topic of gay rights, though, he was hateful. I don’t expect anyone else to judge him based solely on that facet of his character; certainly not the Packers or the NFL. However, that’s the facet of his character that had the most direct impact on me, so, yeah, that’s what I’m going to judge him on. He did a lot of good to a lot of people, but to me he was a jerk. I can respect him for the first part, but the later part makes it hard for me to like him.
[sub]*There’s a certain amount of inference in that, which I will retract if it’s shown to be misplaced. But the most inflammatory quotes from him were made in front of congress, so I’m assuming he was pushing these views in other political contexts.[/sub]
duffer, the “George Bush slam” that you attribute to Reggie White was actually written by Dave Zirin, per your cite. If, you know, facts make any difference to your dudgeon.
Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be hateful?
Yes.
The Packers sure are honoring some strange folks.
Hey duffer, as someone who has been paying attention, I appreciate the humor.
The Packers still suck though.
Listen, you may not like what he had to say, but Hitler was a great defensive back for those Lombardi teams, and the team can honor #88 if they choose.
Would you describe Abraham Lincoln as hateful?
How about George Washington, John Adams, or Thomas Jefferson?
Or Franklin Delano Roosevelt?
I’ve never been a pro football fan (actually can’t stomach any professional sport aside from baseball… and even that is hard at times, but my love for the game overcomes the other feelings I have about MLB) so I honestly can say that I’m one of the few “red blooded” Americans who knew little to nothing about Reggie White.
However from what I read just on this thread it doesn’t seem that White was calling for the extermination of homosexuality, or the criminalization of it. He said it was a sin, that it was immoral, that it promoted the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, and that in spite of that he would have no trouble being friends with a homosexual. The man basically just said homosexuality is immoral, and I hate to break it to this forum but that is the viewpoint held by much of the world. Just because you guys think homosexuality is the best thing since sliced bread doesn’t mean everyone else has to do so. Religiously speaking I think there is little debate about homosexuality. Christian doctrine when not being twisted and deformed clearly shows that homosexual intercourse is a sin. I don’t think that homosexuality ITSELF is a sin… just the actions that may come about as a result of homosexuality. Religiously speaking I view homosexuality as an illness, a cross that sufferers must bear. However religiously speaking the teachings of Jesus still apply, just because someone is a sinner doesn’t mean you reject them completely as human beings. And Jesus also taught to respect the laws of the government under which you live. And under the U.S. Constitution there is little that would justify persecuting homosexuals. Homosexual acts are sinful, but lots of things are sinful, and everyone is a sinner.
I’m not sure when opposition to something became the same thing as being a XXXphobe about something. I oppose socialist ideas and theories almost completely. That doesn’t make me a “socialophobe.” Just because I oppose the way socialists live or want to live or just because I oppose the ideas they hold doesn’t mean I hate or dislike them as people, or that I find them distasteful as human beings.
I oppose homosexual acts as the sins they are. I think people should be taught and educated about the immoral and sinful nature of homosexuality. However, I don’t hate, fear, loathe, or have any form of “distaste” for homosexuals. They’re people with a problem, lots of people have problems and I don’t dislike any of them for it. That’s part of being Christian.
From what I’ve just read here, it doesn’t appear Reggie White was any different than me on that issue. To sum up my views on homosexuality: I 1) feel it is a disorder that gives people sinful desires, 2) acting on those sinful desires is indeed sin, 3) as far as sin goes, it’s not my job to judge ones sins and I also interpret the rest of Christian teachings as being quite clear that no matter how sinful someone is you must still love them and treat them as you would yourself want to be treated. I disagree with people who say homosexuality is “okay” I do not think it is okay. I think it’s a mental disorder and leads directly to sin. However I don’t dislike homosexuals as people, I don’t treat them differently than I do anyone else, I don’t believe they should be treated differently under the law, I think they should have the same rights that anyone else has under the law (marriage, adoption etc), I would never advocate violence or “hate” against homosexuals.
So basically if I’m a “homophobe” I’m a homophobe that would and has argued passionately in favor of complete equality under the law for homosexuals. I’m a “homophobe” that would never shy away from talking with, befriending, or associating with a homosexual because of their sexual issues. I’m a homophobe that would never “meddle” with whatever someone chooses to do with their own bodies in their own bedroom (or anywhere else as long as we’re just talking about PG-13 intimacy and not full blown public intercourse–which is illegal and inappropriate for public consumption whether it be heterosexual or homosexual.)
Basically I view homosexual acts as sins. Aside from that I’ve never thought about or treated homosexuals any differently than I have anyone else. My religious doctrine is clear to me that homosexual acts are sin. And I ascribe to that viewpoint. I’ve explained myself further, and if you feel that my religion sucks, or that I’m a homophobe, that is your prerogative. However I follow the teachings of God, I know that I treat people fair and equitably no matter what baggage they may carry around. I don’t force my religion on others and I wouldn’t want or even expect my religious ideas to be enshrined in law.
Maybe Reggie White went further in his comments than what I’ve read here. But from what I’ve read here he basically says homosexuality is immoral and sinful. I didn’t see him taking it any further than that.
Thank goodness for that iron-clad excuse. :rolleyes:
Religiously speaking, I think the work of posters who know much more about this stuff than you do or I do - or Reggie White did, perhaps - indicates you’re wrong.
If only socialism was a natural sexual orientation instead of a political system, that’d be a really great example!
Martin, to draw you a picture, there’s a difference between condemning a person for an opinion they hold and calling them a sinner for something they are and can’t change when they’re not hurting anyone.
You’re right, and everyone’s fortunate, that White didn’t take those opinions any further. Although I suppose most people who hold the views he expressed don’t take it further than that. It’s still bigotry.
They retired his number for greatness on the field. Sure he said and apparently believed a lot of ignorant nonsense. But the number was retired for his football record and the day was for his family. Let them enjoy their moment. Great football player, yes. Great man, no. He’ll never deserve a humanitarian award in his name like Clemente, but you can’t deny his talents on the field.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. But I’m a little confused with what I see as contradictory positions. On the one hand you say that you can point to two individuals who think that homosexuality is sinful, but would not classify them as homophobes. On the other you state that the position “homosexuality is sinful” is inherently hateful. And that is seemingly contradicted again in “This does not make everyone who holds that belief a hateful person.” What am I not getting?
I really don’t know if White hated homosexuals or not. But I think that it is perfectly reasonable to say that people can disapprove of homosexuality or think it is sinful, and not be hateful toward it. My guess is that there are many who oppose homosexuality on religious grounds, yet feel no hate toward homosexuals. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are AIDS wards around the world filled with Mother Theresa-types, who express nothing but compassion toward homosexuals.
Additionally, how would you define homophobia. It seems the word originally meant (the irrational) fear of homosexuality, but I’ve heard it used more and more in a way that seems to include the idea of hating homosexuality as well.
I tend to agree with your point that the hate part will usually necessitate some expression of that hate, but I’m sure there are many who have the hate and just haven’t acted on it.
An aside: I know many gay people in San Francisco and see the same range of tolerance toward those who disagree with them on the issue of homosexuality as I do with regard to the attitudes of straight people to to gays. For instance, I know outwardly gay men who do no think it a good thing that a gay couple adopt a child. I know several gay men who are downright hostile toward gays who adopt a more flamboyant persona. I actually think that if people were more aware of the differences within the gay community it would go a long way in erradicating much of the ignorance and hate. Right now it’s too easy for some people to see all gays as a monolithic group of “Them”, who they have nothing in common with.
Absolutely. I think there are probably three types of racists:
- those who hate the others and act on that hate
- those who hate the others and don’t act on that hate
- those who see the others as being extremely different from them—and maybe even get hung up o htose differences—but never get anywhere near the “hate” stage.
Overly simplistic? Probably.
Yeah Miller, coming form an ex-Wisconsinite like me who probably saw every thing White did while in WI (The Reggie Whie Show, anyone? I kid you not)…he wasn’t a bad man. Misinformed, but not bad.
Inky
Fuck you and your condescending pussy hiding behind the skirts of Jesus “love the sinner, hate the sin, you’re diseased” bullshit. Fuck you and your “pity the poor suffering homosexuals” routine. The only time my sexuality has ever caused me any suffering is when assholes like you try to cram your beliefs down my throat and into the law books. As far as disease goes, the only thing that saves you and your ilk from a mass diagnosis of schizophrenia is that you plop the word “God” in the middle of your irrational beliefs. I mean really, in the Big Book of Mental Hygiene, who’s crazier: the guy who thinks there’s an invisible, all-powerful sky-father and who thinks a man who’s been dead for 2,000 years talks to him; or the guy who likes to suck cock?
But hey, I’m no Christo-phobe. I think you should have all the same rights as the normal people who aren’t delusional and I’ll argue just as passionately for you poor suffering deluded types as you do for the poor homosexuals.
You’ll have to ask someone else, because I don’t get it either. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” always sounded pretty contradictory to me, too, but there appear to be a few people, at least, who make it work.
I think they can feel that and not be hateful to homosexuals.
Of course, one can express compassion towards a group and still be bigoted (if not necessarily hateful) against them. One can even be a member of a group and be bigoted against it.
My understanding is that the word never was intended to mean “fear of homosexuals,” and was originally coined as a label for people who were prejudiced against homosexuals. I could be mistaken, though. I most often hear it being used in the latter context.
The tragic thing about prejudice is that often the victims of prejudice internalize the hatred that surrounds them. There were blacks who opposed the civil rights movement, and looked down on blacks who were “uppity.” There were women who opposed the sufferage movement, and looked down on women who weren’t “ladylike.” There are gays who oppose the gay rights movement, and look down on gays who act “too gay.” It’s sad, but what can you do?
How many times do I gotta fucking say it? Jesus Christ. I’m convinced, already. He wasn’t an evil person, he helped a lot of people, he deserves to be praised for all of that. He still made it a point to go out of his way to insult me, repeatedly, and apparently tried to legislate his beliefs into law. I’m not going to look the other way when someone does that, no matter how sainted he might have been in other areas.
Can I join your diatribe as a co-sponsor?