[Baby Jane]
“You mean, all this time, we coulda been friends?”
[/Baby Jane]
I didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I wasn’t trying to say, “hey, it’s okay because everyone else does it!!” I’m just pointing out that, “hey, don’t act like this viewpoint is so out of line it’s beyond imagination, lots of people hold this viewpoint.” I don’t think just because a lot of people think something, that it makes something correct. I just feel that this forum is HIGHLY segregated from a lot of the general flow and tempo of the “real world” I think there is sort of an “Ivory tower” aspect to the SDMB that a lot of the members here don’t realize. On a lot of the “big issues” such a huge percentage of the SDMB (or at least such a huge percentage of the vocal posters) is in agreement any other view is seen as ludicrous, unimaginably stupid, or so outlandish it’s inappropriate to even voice said viewpoint.
I don’t want to make this a religious debate. WE CAN have a religious debate, but I’d like to stay at least nominally on topic, so if you or anyone else wants to debate me religiously make a post here or in Great Debates and I’m sure I’ll find your thread eventually. Let me just suffice to say that theologically speaking I feel my position on this is as close to unassailable as you can get as long as you work within the framework of the bible being a central part of Christianity.
Well I’ll agree with you here. There was a better comparison I could make but I was hoping to avoid it because it is an idea that generates a great deal of controversy and angst on all sides.
If someone suffering from any mental illness or dementia commits a crime because they have lost the cognitive abilities that allow them to control themselves, then I don’t feel we can “hate” that person. Or even blame that person.
That’s not quite the same as homosexuality, though.
Lots of people with mental illnesses have stood trial and gone to prison because their mental illness did not meet the legal definition of “insane.” Likewise homosexuality does not so inhibit a person they have no control over their actions. That is why homosexual acts are sins. Homosexuality places strong urges, sinful and inappropriate urges, in the minds of those who suffer from the malady. Medically speaking it’s my opinion (and there is nothing concrete on this subject, scientifically speaking) homosexuality is a developmental disorder (like Asperger’s or autism etc.) perhaps with genetic or even environmental causes. Or more likely it’s a combination of genetics combined with events that occur early in life and adversely affect socialization and possibly it could even be dietary in nature as many adverse affects can happen to young humans who get the wrong balance of nutrients or a deficiency of a certain mineral and etc.
Ultimately what it comes down to is god didn’t give us perfection when he created us. Adam and Eve weren’t perfect, no human is perfect. Some humans get a tough draw in life, and they have to live with conditions that make living a normal life more difficult. Some are born or even raised to have certain proclivities which are sinful or inappropriate. If you’re raised by a family of thieves you will probably have a skewed moral compass… but it still does not absolve you of sin when you steal things.
Homosexuals are born with a disorder that causes them to have strong, sinful urges. Pedophiles have strong inappropriate urges as well. When a pedophile acts on those urges it is most obviously a sin, and also illegal. It’s illegal because someone is typically being victimized at the hand of a pedophile.
Homosexuality is sort of the same, in that its a condition thats “part of who you are” and that it involves inappropriate feelings and urges. Homosexual acts on the contrary are not illegal (or at least should not be illegal) because it’s not the business of government to punish sin, and there is no victim involved. Other than the participants themselves, who are victims of their own desires and have broken to the all too human temptations that many men fall to.
Well there obviously is a difference. However just because no one is being “hurt” by an action doesn’t mean it isn’t a sin. Don’t confuse the term “illegal” with the term “sinful.” It’s sinful to worship false gods, but the act of worshipping a false god doesn’t “hurt” anyone. I’m talking about SIN here, and SIN focuses on the actions of humans as they relate to the will of god. Issues like “personal business” or “no one being hurt” don’t apply here. Everything is god’s business. God has clearly spelled out that homosexual acts are sinful and against his will.
I’d disagree that viewing homosexual acts as sinful is bigotry, but I think this is an impasse that we won’t be able to get past. I’m comfortable with my beliefs, I know I’m not sinful in my beliefs, and I know I’m not causing harm to others with my beliefs. Thus you can label them what you will, and it will cause me no discomfort.
This is a pretty mean spirited post. But I understand to a degree the deluded state of your mind. You were born with a problem, and it’s one that has lead you to sin. God still loves you though, and so do I. You’re not the first person to mock Christianity, whatever “shock value” you tried to generate with your cruel words is lost on me. I’m content to let you think what you want and I’ll think what I want, and ultimately hope that some day you find salvation.
Yes, Otto, we’ve covered this earlier. I was wrong in saying it or even alluding to it. Or implying it. Or thinking it. Not sure what more you want.
Not as much as the Vikings! (The fact that that’s one of the few highlights of the year is really pissing me off)
If you don’t like being insulted, it would behoove you not to insult other people in the first place. And what you wrote in your first post in this thread (to say nothing of your second post) was fantastically insulting. Yeah, yeah, you’ve got God on your side, and that excuses how you treat other people. Stand by your beliefs, by all means, no matter how immoral or disgusting they might be. But don’t act surprised when people treat you the way you’ve treated them. At least have to courage to own the consequences of your actions.
No, even with the Bible being what it is, as far as I can tell you’re still wrong. I can’t imagine anything that would get you off that passive-aggressive, disgusting high horse you’re on - still, fuck you for being too dumb to think of a better reply to Otto than ‘I’m sorry you’re deluded.’ No, that’s not bigoted at all. It’s a shame I have to resort to using accurate words.
[quote[Likewise homosexuality does not so inhibit a person they have no control over their actions. That is why homosexual acts are sins.[/quote]
No, they’re sins because you don’t speak Greek. 
Unless you’re Dr. Hyde, the word “medically” doesn’t belong in that post. You’re just giving yourself a false degree of expertise. One that you clearly don’t have.
Tell you what, I’ll look at it this way: I don’t hate you for the things you’re saying. I understand that you have a condition that causes you to have the urge to say stupid things. That’s not your fault. Maybe it’s genetic, maybe it’s based on childhood trauma or malnutrition. It’s the hand god dealt you. But it doesn’t absolve you of the sin you commit when you say or so something dumb. I pity you, and I hope one day you see the light. When you accept god and exercise more self-control, he’ll forgive you and your stupidity will be less of a cross to bear.
Dammit, Miller, you’re horning in on my outrage! You said everything I was going to say. Of course you said it more eloquently than I was going to; I was going to suggest that Marty fuck himself sideways with a rusty pruning hook.
Applause
That was fucking awesome Otto. I even stood up and cheered for that one. I may be a straight man, but I feel your pain regarding these delusional homophobes hating on you for no good reason. These god sheeple tromp all over your business, insult you, and then turn around and hide behind their “all-loving” creator.
Fuck being nice or politically correct. You had every right to shit down **Martin’s ** throat and god love you for it. 
Oh, and one other thing. If god created everything including gays, then isn’t it his own goddamned fault? I mean, what, he made you this way and now he’s pissed about it? What a fucking moron.
If it weren’t against the the rules I would have pulled up a lawn chair to see your response. I was countin’ on you man. Can’t you dig deep and find a little something extra for Martin?
I’ll ignore the blatant baiting and flaming in your post and address the one worthwhile comment you made.
Firstly even if I spoke Greek, no one speaks ancient greek that was used in the earliest copies of the book of romans (well actually maybe some really devoted linguists attempt to speak the language… but I digress.) And furthermore the arguments that “In the original greek the passages referring to homosexuality in the New Testament magically shift meaning entirely and say nothing about homosexuality being bad” are highly disingenuous.
Let’s also not forget that homosexuality is touched on many times in the Old Testament and that WASN’T written in greek originally.
I never insulted anyone in this thread.
Well, you compared homosexuality to being insane, for starters. And there are some homosexuals in this thread. You knew that, didn’t you?
It may not literally be a spoken langage anymore but it’s still read and studied and understood, so I’m not sure why you think your objection holds any water.
You have it backwards, dipshit. It is the translations into English which “shift the meaning” of the text. The original Greek is not mutable. Romans is actually not one of the texts for which translation is a huge issue, (that would be Corinthians) but is just a passage which is selectively cherry-picked and decontextualized in order to justify a preconceived bias.
Not really. It’s arguably touched on exactly twice- in Leviticus. It’s also debatable as to whether those verses referred to all homosexuality or whether they referred to cultic prostitution. In either case, Leviticus is not something which Chreistians make any effort to follow in any other regard so it’s beyond disingenuous to point at it as an excuse to bash homos.
In point of fact, almost everything you’ve said in this thread has been insulting. Allow me to quote some highlights:
That’s insulting.
That’s insulting.
That’s insulting and horrifying.
That’s insulting.
That’s insulting.
That’s hugely insulting, and not supported by the vast majority of respected doctors and researchers in the mental health field.
I genuinely and deeply appreciate that.
That’s a deeply insulting comparison.
No reputable scientist considers homosexuality to be a developmental disorder. Current medical science does not in anyway support your views on the biological nature of homosexuality.
That’s simply bat-shit insane.
That comparison so deeply insulting it’s a good thing you didn’t say it to me in person.
However, I am keeping in mind that you said this:
Which is what really counts, and what really shows the measure of your character. But it doesn’t take the sting out of your earlier insults. This time around, I’ll assume that you genuinely did not understand how your comments sound to most gays. Hell, you probably still don’t understand it, but at least you’re aware of it. I hope you keep that awareness in mind the next time you feel the need to defend your beliefs, and maybe consider what you hope to achieve by defending them against the reaction people will have towards you for doing so.
Now, if you’re so inclined, maybe you can answer a question for me: why is homosexuality a sin?
It’s a sin because he thinks some guy thousands of years ago said it was a sin. What are you, thick? 
Wasn’t an objection (what am I objecting anyways, exactly?). I was just pointing out that even if I was Greek I wouldn’t have any greater understanding of ancient biblical texts, no more than an Italian would have a greater understanding of original Latin texts from the Roman era. It was just a minor nitpick, I felt that saying “because you don’t speak Greek” wasn’t perfectly accurate. And I also alluded to the fact that it was read and studied and understood (and that should also go without saying quite honestly.)
I wasn’t saying that. So no, I don’t have it backwards. You’re misinterpreting precisely what I meant by using the word “shift.”
There’s also some allusions in Genesis, as well.
Also, Diogenes, do you have some sort of anger management problem? I find no reason to make use of borderline-profanity and throw around insults just because you disagree with me. Even if you think me an idiot it shows a great deal of immaturity and lack of social grace to come out and say it.
Some people get on an internet forum and completely forget all rules regarding civilized behavior.
@Miller You’ve made too many quotes for me to answer your thread using quotes of my own (I’m lazy and not all that great at formatting posts.) But basically I’ll say that nothing I said is what I would consider an insult. Calling a person with multiple sclerosis “ill” or “sick” may not be 100% accurate at all times, but it is also not inaccurate and it’s not insulting, it’s calling a fish a fish.
If I’m wrong about it being a disease that makes me incorrect, but I still wouldn’t consider it an insult simply because I made an incorrect statement.
Anyways, if you consider the words insulting I’m sorry. I don’t intend to mean them as insults.
Uh Martin, you are approaching babblespeak here. Just respond to Miller’s quotes. No need to search.
This is the Pit. Calling someone crazy is allowed but still considered to be an insult. Unless you think it is an honorific. Do you?