Religion and intelligence

This presumes that religious worldviews have been shown to be false; this is clearly not a matter that has been demonstrated. So there’s a cognitive disconnect for you.
Here’s something to disprove: Human error and failing are central to the flaws of the world, and we need, collectively, to do penance and correct this. (A variety of Christian denominations.)

How about: Moderation in all things. (Hellenic paganism.)

Or: Desire and attachment are the roots of suffering. (Buddhism.)

Or maybe one of mine, if you want it: All people have the potential within them to return to the perfect and act in accord with what is right. (Kemeticism.)

Here’s another: The balance and polarity between male and female is one of the central truths of reality and is to be both revered and celebrated. (Some forms of Wicca.)

And an actual bit of someone’s texts, though I suspect I’ve bollixed it up somewhere: Cattle die, kinsmen die, you yourself shall surely die, but word-fame lives forever for one who has achieved it well. (Asatru.)
I know people who find that their carefully considered experiences put them in accord with all of these and more. None of these are addressed by any form of science I’m aware of. All of them have their own forms and associated mindsets. All of them have toolsets for dealing with particular concerns, vocabulary for those concerns, ways of dealing with particular weaknesses and put particular strengths to work. Some of them are, to their adherents and to others, beautiful; all of them are, to their adherents, useful.

Science has its myths, too; you yourself quoted the story of Galileo and the leaning tower, which is probably apocryphal – but illustrates a point. The point illustrated is true; Galileo, the Leaning Tower, and gravity all exist, but the story is a fiction. Yes? Someone arguing that the story isn’t literally true doesn’t disprove science to you, but the story is nonetheless a vivid one, one that people keep telling. Personally, I’d consider someone who was harping on the question of whether Galileo really dropped things off the Leaning Tower to be missing the point at best.

This seems to me to be presuming that a religious structure and a scientific structure cannot be adhered to simultaneously. Are you under the strange impression that I am not an adherent of a scientific worldview? (Either/or attitudes are pretty common, so my knee may be jerking here. But I don’t think the looney theistic types who reject science or the non-religious who hold that science is incompatible with faith are doing anyone any favours, though, especially if one’s interested in any sort of non-antagonistic discussion.)

Science and a scientific worldview are the best tools I’m aware of for dealing with particular questions of fact. I am interested in more than fact, myself.

If you want to argue that science should override religion rather than exist alongside it as an additional set of tools and approaches, you have to not merely establish its credibility, but demonstrate to people that it is a toolset that also addresses the interpretation of fact, the development of meaning, development of a basic paradigmatic approach to the universe, correct living, seeking sources of beauty, achieving mental peace and calm, living in accord with a structured system of behaviour, systematising their experiences into something they can respond to in a way they find satisfying, organisation of societal structures and families, social cohesion, addressing transitional periods in life (birth, death, and passage into adulthood are the biggies here), having a resource of stories that illustrate things that need to be illustrated, and all the other practical reasons that people have religions.

Until someone manages to do that, I’m going to continue using my screwdrivers on screws and limit my hammer usage to actual nails.

Why is the burden of replacing that laundry list of “religious” items on science? I’ve manage to find all of those things on your list (for the most part), without the use of a protractor or a single Bunsen burner.

Did you actually read the paragraph you quoted?

You know, the part that begins, “If you want to argue that science should override religion rather than exist alongside it as an additional set of tools and approaches, you have to not merely establish its credibility, but demonstrate to people that. . .”

The burden is upon the proponents of science as sole worldview to demonstrate that their toolset meets all the toolset needs that are fulfilled by various religions for their adherents. Unless they do that, they have no standing to claim that science has rendered religion obsolete.

(Given that the strength of science is its universality, I think they have their work cut out for them. I flatly don’t believe in the possibility of a one-size-fits-all solution to the personal, aesthetic, social, and development needs of every single human being; we can’t even agree on what football team to root for, let alone anything more critical.)

Well, I guess I just don’t accept your premise that science supporters are arguing that science should override religion. But even if I did, why would science have to establish credibility and/or demonstrate it’s toolset anymore (or less) than the various religious beliefs?

Also, if I were to start a completely new and unique religion in my garage, and a handful of followers found all those touchy-feely things you listed by worshipping whatever I chose to be the center of my religion, does it make my new religion any more “real”? Does it discredit science at all? Just because people have practical reasons for believing in a deity, it doesn’t make belief in that deity practical.

“Well, yes, nothing’s wrong with science. You know, between air conditioning and the Pope, I’ll take air conditioning.” - Woody Allen, Deconstructing Harry

It presumes no such thing. I am trying to make clear that when a worldview bases its legitimacy, in part, upon a falsifiable concept, and that concept is indeed falsified, then the structure of that worldview must stand or fall without the truth of that concept.

Take, for example, the Biblical Creation story (either of them). The overarching framework and purpose of them is to legitimize the Jewish idea of a sabbath every seven days, by dividing the creation of the World into 6 periods of alternating activity and cessation of activity, followed by a time of rest. The clear purpose of this is to say, “God toiled 6 days and rested the 7th, and if it’s good enough for God, it’s good enough for you.”

Now, the fact that the creation of the Universe (as we now know) simply didn’t happen as described in Genesis removes it form the support of the necessity of a sabbath. If you wish to continue pushing the sabbath, you may have any number of reasons that give it legitimacy, but Creation a la Genesis ain’t one of them anymore.

At that point, your brain can take one of two paths: Either “that part of the Bible is wrong in its facts and perhaps its implications” or “the Bible MUST be right, how can I make the facts match the story?” I don’t think I need to spell out which is the more intellectually rigorous path. If you choose the latter, it is due to either an unwillingness or an inability to percieve the facts as they exist. Politeness and fairness suggest that without proof of malicious intent, we should assume some sort of inability.

As for your other statements:

One of the great things about science is its ability to frame the testability of a question, even when the answer can not be determined.

This hypthesis actually comes in three parts:

a) The flaws of the world are due to human error and failing.
b) Because of this, if we all do penance, the flaws of the world will be corrected.
c) Penance is sufficient to remove human error and failing.

Now, there are a couple of ways to test this empirically.

If we get all 6 billion of us to do penance (and we would first need to clearly define just what that was) and all the flaws of the world (which we would need to completely delineate beforehand) are indeed corrected, we have proved (b) directly. If, by that time, we have demonstrated (c) conclusively, we have proved (a) by implication. If, after penance, some flaws remain in the world, then it is possible that (c) is false, unless we have already proved it conclusively, in which case (a) is disproven, and (b) must be modified to state that through penance, SOME of the flaws of the world can be corrected.

The trouble with the Christian experiment to get everyone to repent as it is currently practiced is that they have not yet set a universal standard of what the flaws of the world are, nor provided proof that penance removes human error and failing. Thus, even if their methods succeed, their results will be inconclusive.

This is incomplete. Moderation in all things results in…what? Then we would have a falsifiable statement.

(This brings to mind a friend of my father’s, famous for recommending “moderation in all things”. When he made his fortune with Merell shoes, he bought himslef a gigantic luxury yacht, which he of course named “Moderation”.)

A single example of suffering (a definition of which would be agreed upon ahead of time) that did not have its roots in desire or attachment (both of which you would also have to define explicitly ahead of time) would be sufficient to disprove this statement.

1: define “perfect”, what it means to “return” to it.

2: “right”, and what it means to “act in accord with” it.

3: develop some sort of indicator that would show consistently the presence within a person of the potential to “return to the perfect” and “act in accord with what is right” as defined in steps 1 and 2, and apply the indicator to all people. If all of them turn out positive, the statement is borne out. If one person turns out negative, the statement is disproven.

4: If no such indicator is available, the statement is untestable for the time being.

5: If you can show conclusively that no such indicator can ever be developed, then the statement is permamently untestable and can not be scientifically proven or disproven.

This one neds tighter framing to be testable. It seems to be assumed here that all of the central truths of reality (which still need a definition and criteria for inclusion) are to be revered and celebrated. This would be more rigorous if there existed a proof. If proven, all we need to do is define “the balance of male and female” and show that, as defined, it meets the previously defined criteria for inclusion in the central truths of reality.

Well, now this one is somewhat paradoxical. First we must define what it means to “achieve word-fame well”, and see if anyone’s word-fame that meets the criteria has failed to last until now. Of course, if their word-fame hasn’t lasted, we would never have heard of them, which means we must find them, which means that we have extended the life-span of their word-fame, which contaminates the results of the experiment. This one may be untestable, in the sense that we can not set up an experiment in which it can be proven false. It can never be proven true.

The only religious viewpoints that are incompatible with science are those that assign positive truth-values to falsifiable statements known by science to be false. To embrace both in such an instance, you have three choices.

a) Admit to the wrongness of the false statements of the religion, which naturally brings up the question of how much of the religion needs to be abandoned to be in line with the facts.
b) Insist that the observed facts and proven conclusions be modified to fit with the pronouncements of the religion, which is intellectually dishonest.
c) turn off the part of your brain that naturally notices and processes these inconsistencies, which is self-destructive.

Did you miss the thread this is in? You know, the thread where the question of whether religious belief is a sign of stupidity, given the existence of science, is being debated? The thread where I’ve specifically referred to those people who think that science renders religion obsolete, not all supporters of science?

Read for content, man.

If the particular structure of beliefs, practices, and whatever else comes with the religion is meaningful to the people involved, meets their needs, and is satisfying to them, then it is a perfectly real religion.

All religions come from somewhere. Your garage is as good a place as any.

And I am trying to point out to you that you are dealing with things that don’t contain falsifiable concepts. That the concept of “falsifiable concepts” is not a useful one to dealing with a religious worldview. “Falsifiable concept” is useful for addressing fact; it is not useful for addressing the things that fall within the realm of religion, which are subjective experience, meaning, and judgement.

The world is full of facts: what’s there, what happens, that people react to it. Those reactions are grounded, in part, in things which are not fact; the tools for dealing with fact are not useful to them.

Consider someone who is prone to excesses: let’s pick gluttony, addiction, and temper. For that person, adopting a basic belief such as “Moderation in all things” and attempting to live according to its structure may bring them more in accord with who they want to be. “Moderation in all things” is not something of fact; it is a statement of belief. It is a tool for that person to use to guide their behaviour, to make choices.

It may be that such a person may adopt that belief on its own, without its religious context; that may satisfy all their needs in that area. It may also be that that person wants the support of a community of similarly inclined people, and may join an organisation that has “Moderation in all things” as one of its tenets.

Or, indeed, it may be that that person has experiences that they consider best explained by the Greek gods, or consider the Greek mythos to be particularly rich and meaningful to them, or consider the Greek gods to be useful archetypes for representing portions of their consciousness symbolically (I noticed a friend of a friend mentioned recently who’s an Asatru atheist with roughly this position, though of course for Norse forms rather than Greek); it may be that a need for particular practices in that person’s life is fulfilled by the Hellenic forms; it may be that the entire formulation of the Greek worldview and its approach to the world is in strong resonance with the deep preferences and observations in that person. In these cases and others, that person might well adopt that religion and its forms because they have value.

The fact that other people do not find that the religion has value, even if they have adopted individual parts of its philosophy, does not matter; they’re not the ones who have to use the tools and find them meaningful.

Whether or not some third party finds those tools useful is not subject to falsifiability. You can either take their word for it, or you can presume they’re lying, deluded, or deranged. I prefer the option that leads to a polite society, and support this in my mind by recognising that in a world where people actually like chocolate ice cream, I can’t make judgements about what tools and preferences other people will find valuable by extrapolating from my own needs and likes.

Point taken. But the only two others left in this debate, it seems, are me and scotandrsn. Here’s what we had to say earlier in the thread:

I think you’re taking the easy way out by only addressing the extremist argument.

So you don’t think that otherwise group of intelligent fellows worshiping a weedwacker in my dank garage have something holding them back from using thier intelligence and rationality to get over what scotandrsn describes as the “short wall”?

Pash

Make that “group of otherwise intelligent fellows” above.

Well, that’s still a pretty crappy sentence, but it’ll have to do for now. Sorry about that.

Pash

I think I don’t have enough information. All I have is the very bare facts of what they’re doing.

They could have found some profound, important insight to them. They could be caught up in someone’s cult of personality. They could be playing along to see what happens next. They could be following the crowd and sticking to the new fad. They could have been told that they’ll get something good out of this if they stick around long enough. They could be hanging out for the post-worship barbecue. They could be stark mad. They could be manufacturing a shared numinous experience out of shared desire and not much else, like kids playing with an Ouija board. They could be credulous idiots. I’d expect, if there were enough people in your hypothetical garage, to have a selection of all of those and probably some I can’t think of there.

Facts don’t get me into their heads. What’s in their heads is what matters to that question. (Now, if the question is dealing with the factual case of you being unable to get your car in the garage or use your weed-whacker, that’s something I have a judgement on. But it doesn’t reference the unknowable of what’s in their heads.)
I happen to know that the religion that I practice came about in its current form due to the actions of particular known personalities in the early nineties. (I’ve met several of the dominant ones, and, unfortunately, had to deal with the fallout of ego-herding rather more than I would prefer in my religious practices.) I rather suspect that this gives me a rather different perspective on the idea of “made up in the garage last Tuesday” than people who think of religion in terms of something that’s been around since time immemorial.

I guess that’s where we differ. I think of it as precisely that - all in their heads. I’m having a hard time articulating it, but I do admire your take on this as opposed to the “my religion is real, but those other believers are whackos” way of thinking. And yes, as long as they don’t restrict my access to the weed-whacker when I need it, more power to 'em (okay, I think I’ve stretched my analogy as far as it can go :slight_smile: ).

Cheers,
Pash

I think many religious people will disagree with you. For what is the difference between religion and philosophy? Religion supposedly has some root in the world - either here or beyond. Philosophy can give you reasons not to kill, religion says do not kill because some god or other says so.

Let’s take Christianity. The existence of Jesus, the way Jesus died, the resurrection, are all potentially falsifiable and crucial parts of Christianity. Jefferson’s version of the NT with a human Jesus is not Christianity - do you agree? Say we found a journal from the time telling us that Jesus got run over by a chariot. The moral precepts of Christianity might be valid, but Christianity as the correct, god-given way of dealing with the world would be pretty much dead. And substitute your favorite religion for Christianity - they are all the same in this respect.

Your examples really do not say anything. “Love makes the world go round.” Prove or disprove. Pointless, right? Now if you claim a deity told you this, it becomes a lot more important - assuming the deity exists. If not, it goes back to being a random song lyric.

So, please show that your or any religion has some special claim to the truth - if not, you have no more claim to our attention than Dr. Phil.

What makes you think that I believe “the truth” exists to lay claim to?

If not, you subscribe to no religion (and my hat’s off to you.) What distinguishes religion from ethics? It is just the difference between “Joe says don’t eat pork” and “God says do not eat pork.” What Joe says we can debate, what god says go. Perhaps I was misled by reading the last few posts into thinking you supported religion, if not, my apologies.

Incorrect.

Religion is a subset of philosophy, just as science is.

I agree with the former, and the latter is true historically, though I am not sure it is true today. How would you distinguish the religion subset?

Yes to all of the above. I assume there is something wrong with them. I think of it as a social disease. There are enough smart religious folks out there that I would not rule out the two traits coexisting. I just think of them as smart people who need therapy. Same as depressed people or whatever. Suffering from depression myself, I do not expect any slack from the world for the times when my condition gets the better of me. (Those suffering other mental illnesses might get more sympathy.) Likewise, I do not cut religious folks any slack for their often-ignorant beliefs getting the better of them (and usually everyone around them too).

This especially troubles me in re: to my own mother. She seems bright enough, but still goes to church as if she falls for it. shrug Could have worse problems I guess… I like to think she does it for the community more than the fairy tales.

Get ahold of your minds, people.