Religion based on rational belief? Then why the geographic variation?

I realize that this is my fourth or fifth thread propagating my militant atheism. But please bear with me. As I explained in another thread, Satan gives prizes for the most zealous efforts.

I already have two bronzed Renaissance popes (Satan delivered them last night). Now, for this thread, I will get a picture encyclopaedia of all the good servants of God from the Borgia Popes to Jimmy Swaggart having sex with hookers, other men, etc. (There is a volume about priests in the Boston Archdiocese, but I asked that it be left out of my collection because I refuse to have any child porn.)

Anyhow, here is my proposition:

People of religion tell us that their beliefs are logical and reasonable, and not based on simple brainwashing in their childhood or societal pressure.

“Logical and reasonable” would imply that their religious beliefs are based on the human brain examining reality and evidence and drawing reasonable conclusions that lead to these beliefs.

That being the case, how do you explain the religious belief varies enormously on a geographic basis? Look at a map of religions in the world.

Why is it so evident to the vast majority of people born in Muslim countries that there is no God but a unitary God, that Mohammed is his final prophet, that Jesus was not the Son of God but a prophet who came before Mohammed, and that the Koran is the inspired word of God?

Why is it that the majority of people in Christian countries are equally convinced by logic and the observation of reality (using the same human brains as Muslims use) that there is a trinitarian God, that Jesus was his only-begotten son, and that Mohammed was a false prophet, etc.?

Now apply my same question *mutatis mutandis * to Shintoism, Hinduism, etc.

Why is it that over 90% of the people whose rational minds and logic dictate the “correctness” of Hinduism are located in the Indian sub-continent? Is there something in the water that makes them reason differently than Christians and Muslims?

Now I realize that there are Muslims, Hindus etc. in North America (mainly because of immigration) and Christians in India and Muslim countries. I also realize that there is such a thing as conversion. But these are the exceptions. The vast majority of Muslims in the west are immigrants from Muslim countries or the children of such immigrants, and were indoctrinated into the religion at an early age.

So how do you explain the phenomenon that the vast, vast majority of believers in one religion or another were born into that religion and into a country where that religion is predominant, and were taught that that religion is right when they were children?

If religious belief were based on logic and reason rather than childhood indoctrination and societal pressure, would the various and contradictory views of various religions not be more equally interspersed among humans everywhere on Earth?

In science, there are different theories and hypotheses about many things, to be sure. A theory can be slightly more popular among scietists in one country than another. At one point, there may have been more scientists in America who believed in plate tectonics and the movement of continents than in Europe, or vice-versa. But now pretty much every scientist today accepts plate tectonics. And even when the idea was controversial, you did not have the kind of geographic breakdown that you have with religion.

So if religion is based on rational conclusions, why does reason operate differently on different continents and in different countries? My conclusion is that for the vast majority of people, religion is a matter of childhood indoctrination and societal pressure.

Your opinions?

The same thing can be said of languages. The vast majority of people who speak Russian live in Russia. Some people outside of Russia speak the language, the majority of those being immigrants while the rest can be attributed to globalization.

What’s your point?

I can predict the whole thread. First some squishy, spiritual poster will say talking about specific beliefs is not necessary becuase we are all connected by a spiritual bond. Then a liberal christian will say that we all believe in the same god (his of course), but God has revealed different aspects of himself to different people. Then a consevative christain will say that God loves everybody, but you need to believe in Jesus or you will burn in hell for eternity, then the whole thread will devolve into an argument about what constitutes religion.

Maybe the ability to create a language out of whole cloth is similar to how religions are created? That believing that there is one tru language is silly (why don’t we all speak King James English like Jesus did).

Are you looking for answers? Or do you get the picture encyclopedia even if no one responds, so you don’t care what anyone else says?

Sorry, Greenback, I don’t often use the word “stupid” and I am NOT calling YOU stupid (Tomndeb, please note the act of contrition). But I think your analogy with language is a truly stupid analogy. I would have said “specious”, but that implies that it is outwardly attarctive though flawed. It is not even outwardly attractive. A child could see the difference.

Religions claim to be expressions of universal and eternal truths. Islam claims that Mohammed is the messanger of God objectively, truly, for all humanity, for all time. Christianity claims that Jesus is the saviour of all mankind.

Languages make no such claim. They are nothing but a series of sounds to which a group of people have assigned a mutually agreed-upon meaning.

French people describe a subdivided space in a house as a “chambre”. English people call it a “room”. Germans call it a “Zimmer”.

None of these groups make the slightest claim that the thing described is essentially a “chambre” “room” or “Zimmer” in objective reality. All they are saying is that that is the “noise” they make when they want to designate it to other members of their group who understand that noise to mean that thing.

Nobody in English, French or German has ever claimed that “reason” leads them to believe that the thing is a “chambre” or whatever.

Geographic language distribution is easily explained, because nobody ever claimed language was anything but an arbitrary set of noises we make that have agreed-upon meaning within our language groups.

So your non-existent Satan is handing out prizes for starting silly threads even when you fail to “win” the arguments? I suspect that your Satan and your awards are equally imaginary.

What people, where, and when?

Because religion, once it becomes institutionalized, tends to coopt the phenomena that gave rise to the institution and lay down planks of “what to believe” in accordance with what will maximize the power of the institution (and whatever other social institutions it is allied with). Thus, each “brand name” of institutionalized religion tends to promote and enforce a strongly homogenized version of The Truth, and each such copy of The Truth contains a huge heaping portion of unmitigated bullshit.

Conflating institutions of religion with the entirety of the phenomenon that they institutionalize is an equivocation.

Hey, wait a minute. How come we don’t get to discuss abortion and gay rights, this time?

Valteron, you might find it useful to do some reading on “frame theory” or “frame analysis” in sociology.

Satan likes to see a lot of replies, because it shows that at least some people are having their faith undermined. But there are extra prizes available.

If I get over 20 replies to my thread, I get both of the heads of John the Baptist that are shown in two different churches in Italy. (I believe that one is the head of JB as a young man and the other is his head later in life.)

As you may know, several churches in Christianity have reliquaries containing the foreskin of Christ (who as a Jew was of course circumcised on the 8th Hebrew day after his birth). Jewish circumcisers regularly saved severed foreskins for use by the relic industry, as we all know.

If I collect all of them I can sew them into a wallet. The nice thing is, you can rub the wallet a few times and it grows into a small piece of luggage.

So keep those answers coming! :smiley:

Some of the differences between religions are differences of style, not substance. They use different vocabulary, imagery, metaphors, etc. to describe the same things. To this extent, geographic variation casts no more doubt on their truth or validity than does variation in languages, styles of music, etc.

Most religions, however, have a revealed component to them. They do not claim that the beliefs of their religion are something a person could figure out on his own, solely through logic.

Someone’s been digging up Dawkins old lectures! Or not, but this definitely reminded me of it. He compared how ridiculous it’d be if that happened in science, where for example everyone in NA would believe that the dinosaurs died from a meteor impact, everyone in Europe believed it was a virus, everyone in China believed it was volcanism, everyone in India believed it was climate change, and everyone in SA tried to mix it all together.

Examining the current physical distribution is interesting but moreso IMO is looking at the temporal differences – all those long dead religions that used to be fervently held and with as much passion as today’s; or the same religions that evolve as time marches on.

Satan doesn’t like having tea with me because I don’t believe in him. He tells me I need to be more trusting but I dunno…

Besides, how is this topic silly? I mean, it’s pretty trivial I guess, but it seems like one of those niggling points on a long list that would, in my view, keep a theist up at night. The very OP actually speaks to me in that regard, since that’s how I started down the path of doubt when I was 11-12 or so.

I always loved this one. God has multiple personalities! What’s the clinical term? A dissociatied mind? Jesus needs a shrink, stat!

Homosexuality, too. And Heinlein, sooner or later.

Valteron, how about we take a look at what all those religions that have appeared all around the globe have in common? We could all be surprised at how much there is.

Most religions share the same basic stuff:

There is a big dad god.
He creates a hyerarchy of supernatural beings.
Humans are created.
Celestial minions mess up the whole thing.
A bunch of basic rules for society are given (i.e. don’t eat each other and play nice, with some basic hygiene and food safety tips)
Humans die and there is an afterlife whose quality depends on their mortal life.

OMG, the same stuff all over the world?! It must then be true.

Let’s take a look at science, OTOH. Greeks were looking at stars, British at falling apples, American at electric kites, Japanese at fruit flies, Belgians at particle colliders. These guys don’t seem to share anything. I mean, yeah, they see the other stuff on internet and find it cool even if they have never done any work in that field. But really, they are just agreeing on the stuff for funding grants. It’s a cartel. Science is such crud.

Still on level three, then? n00b!

Call me when you have the stone that Jesus didn’t have to rest his head.

We’ve got Jacob’s pillow stone over here. Care to do a swap?

John and Mary Kitzenhauser of Kansas City First Baptist Church at 5:12 p.m. on the corner of First and Jarvis Streets on May 26, 1968.

Have you never heard of common knowledge? You have never met a single religious person who claimed that their belief was reasonable and not just a matter of childhood indoctrination??

As you can see, Oakminster, I have learned to deal with your tactics.