Religion gets itself into trouble when it tries to be logical

Continuing the discussion from Is “limbo” a real thing for christians/Catholics? Or is it made-up?:

Logic and faith actually seem like opposites. Logic tries to prove things but it has to start from definitions. Faith defines itself by its refusal to provide proof. In logic a definition is a place where we start by taking something on faith.

Religion gets itself into trouble when it tries to be too logical. Logic is just too binary. A statement must be either true or false. Somewhere in between is just too complicated. The religious holy war is an example.

A religious leader sees himself as working for God. That means that someone who disagrees with him must be working for Satan. Someone working for Satan is better off dead. The two sides accuse each other and off we go.

The concept of limbo seems like an attempt at turning a grey area into something logical. If you can’t go to heaven without being baptized, does that mean that babies who die before the adults complete the procedure go to hell? The logical contradiction leads to this weird concept of a place that’s not great but not awful either.

You assume that all religions have a god and an anti-god. This is not necessarily so. Judaism, for example - the character called “the satan” in Job is not evil or an opponent of God, but a being that works for God as a sort of heavenly prosecutor. Nor is there a belief that not being Jewish is evil - Jewish law is only for Jews, and non-Jews are not expected to adhere to the same standard, as long as they’re not murdering, stealing, committing adultery, eating flesh torn from a living animal, cursing the name of God, or worshipping idols, and as long as they live in a society with laws and courts.

This seems like a pretty easy out for calling anybody of another religion “evil”.

I grew up Roman Catholic. Twelve years of parochial schooling.

I now stay out of any and all religious discussions & debates. I am not going to waste my time on that stuff. So much bad stuff has been imposed in the name of religion. Ugh.

Idolatry in Judaism refers specifically to worshipping a physical object, not just worshipping a god other than Yahweh.

All I have to say on this subject, as a fellow Roman Catholic, (now atheist) is that at least one thing religion does is make things musical. Such wonderful music made for a god who isn’t there…

Religion tends to mesh badly with logic because it is about appeal to emotion; not facts or logic. Trying to apply logic runs into the issue that at base, it make no sense so people trying to do so end up like the pre-modern people trying to make the orbits of planets geocentric and perfectly circular by adding more and more epicycles to them. They build ever-more-elaborate logical castles in the sky, because every attempt at logically explaining their religion just leads to more contradictions and confusion rather than less.

And if they admit that the fundamental premise they are trying to logically explain is wrong; well, then they aren’t religious anymore.

That’s a good way to put it.

But on sorta counter-point I’ll also agree w @Smapti that the OP says they’re talking about religion, when in fact they’re talking about the specific foibles of christianity. And I don’t just mean limbo, a specifically catholic invention.

There are other non-xian faiths that don’t have this collision with logic. Because they don’t cover the same sort of faith-ground as the xians try to. It’s when they try to have a universal set of explanations for the entire real Universe that they get into trouble. So don’t do that.

Too late for the xians and (perhaps, IANA expert enough to say) the Muslims.

I get what you’re saying, and I agree there’s a real tension between logic and faith.

Logic is built to prove things, but it always has to start somewhere, definitions and assumptions. In that sense, even logic begins by accepting something before it can “prove” anything. Faith can feel like the opposite because it doesn’t primarily exist to provide proof the way logic does. It’s more like a lived trust and a journey into meaning, transformation, and relationship.

To me, faith is a journey toward the heart, but it often starts in the head. We try to understand it logically, rationalize it, and turn it into rules. And that’s where religion can get itself into trouble, because logic is often too binary for the complexity of human motives and spiritual life.

For example: one church eats certain foods and gives thanks; another abstains prayerfully. What’s the “correct” rule? Who is the “Satan” if one eats or doesn’t eat? That’s the danger of stopping too early in the journey: when faith becomes mostly rules,definition and boundary making, disagreement easily becomes moralized into “I’m working for God, therefore you must be working for Satan.” And once someone is labeled “Satan,” the next steps you described accusation, escalation, holy war logic, start to feel “consistent” inside that system.

But I don’t think the deepest spiritual divide is usually in the action itself. I think it’s in the direction underneath it. If I had to use a logical analogy, it’s almost closer to a quantum model than a purely binary rulebook: there are many outward activities, but the “spin” underneath them tends to fall into one of two directions.

  • Up-spin: agape selfless love, gratitude, humility, and seeking the good of the other
  • Down-spin: love without agape, fear, coercion, exclusion, control, hatred, or “love with strings attached”

So the church that eats certain foods can be operating in the up-spin if they’re doing it in sincere gratitude and selfless love. And the church that abstains can also be operating in the up-spin if they’re doing it to honor God with humility and love. In that sense, both can be “right” even while doing opposite things, because the holiness isn’t ultimately in the food, but in the love.

But if a church guilts people into compliance, threatens exclusion, or demands submission through fear, then even if the rule is “technically correct,” the spirit underneath it is a down-spin. That’s where faith becomes distorted into something that looks logical on paper but produces division in real life.

On limbo: I see it less as an attempt to force faith into logic, and more as people trying to answer a painful unknown because it matters deeply to them. In that sense it reminds me of Paul at times giving guidance while acknowledging the limits of certainty, “I, Paul, not the Lord…”, where he’s not claiming perfect knowledge, but still trying to teach responsibly out of love. It’s imperfect, but it’s an attempt to care for people when the question feels unbearable.

And I think this is why faith can look irrational from the outside: if you only observe religious people behaving in contradictory ways, and some seem full of compassion while others seem full of control, you don’t have a clear basis to “decode” what faith even is. But if agape is the center, then the pattern becomes visible.

In my own life, that’s what makes the journey real: receiving and learning to live in agape. Without that, faith just looks like competing rule systems. With it, the “logic” of faith becomes clearer, not as a cold proof, but as a consistent movement toward selfless love.

Are you against religions making factual claims, then saying they have no obligation to back up those claims with evidence?

The original meaning was that those who were under the covenant should not worship idols. People not under it could. The “tribe X can be slaughtered because they are idol worshipers” is a later invention to excuse the demands of a god who is supposed to be good.
Remember, the idol worshipers had bigger armies.
True to this day. It’s why Jews don’t send people out to try to convert the heathen. No hell, the heathen will be just fine as they are.

That’s not an argument against religions using logic. That’s just an argument against religions using bad logic. The same argument would apply against anyone using bad logic.

I most certainly am. As an atheist surrounded by believers (like most of us are) I’ve found that if you find one who will debate honestly and really pin them down they will admit they did not come to believe through logical reasoning or using the empirical method, but choose to believe because they LIKE the way it makes them feel, it gets them through the day, it helps them sleep at night.

I can’t object to telling me their beliefs if they are honest and admit they are beliefs, opinions, feelings, and just that. I DO object if they state any of these beliefs as facts.

Extraordinary facts require extraordinary proof. And any proof they offer does not pass the smell test.

Seems like a no true Scotsman argument. There are a great many people who readily acknowledge that no entity resembling the Biblical God actually exists, but who still spend a great deal of time in religious activities.

Formal logic recognizes that there are statements, such as “This Statement Is False” that can’t be categorized as right or wrong. If people choose to engage in black and white thinking, that’s not logic’s fault.

I prefer Neil deGrasse Tyson’s thoughts on death and afterlife: your body’s energy returns to the ecosystem or, if cremated, radiates into space, continuing a cosmic connection. It’s simple and it’s logical. No leaps of faith required, no unsolvable mysteries, no magical figures. Just please open the nearest window when I die.

There’s a reason Christians say “Lean not unto your own understanding” and “God works in mysterious ways.” It’s like a default fallback card any time a logic-based argument doesn’t work.

I think you need to recognize that what religious believers may claim are “facts” are really things they consider to be foundational, self-evident truths to them, not things that can be scientifically validated or tested. There are different types of facts, some can be tested scientifically (e.g. the speed of light), some can be be proven by logic (e.g. certain mathematical relationships), and some are untestable subjective experiences (e.g. “I love my wife”). I would lump religious “facts” in with the last group.

I regularly see billboards, particularly in Indiana and Michigan, which state things like, “There is proof! God is REAL!”, with a phone number or a website where I’m sure one could “learn more.” I agree, that the “proof” which the evangelist is referring to is going to be a self-evident truth, or a belief-based interpretation of something.

I agree completely with the thread headline.

However, there are, apparently, sometimes attempts at using internal logic among some Christians about some issues. I’m not sure exactly how it works, having declined to participate in such discussions*, but my born-again sister takes great pride in her study of her religion, and her ability to think her way through various, I don’t know, puzzles or conundrums or questions, not about the basics, but about different parts meshing with other parts. I also understand that (some?) Jewish scholars love nothing more than a good verbal wrangle about some fine point about Judaism, all very technical and full of internal logical points.

*Although knowing full well what I think about religion, my sister once asked me to read or watch some series of articles or videos about some of these kinds of issues, so that we could debate them between us “for fun.” I thought that she was trying to do a run around our rule against proselytizing, but she insisted she thought it would be possible for me to participate in such an activity for shits and giggles. What a loon.