Religion in fact is...

Great Debates
1

About the practice of sacrifice among the Jews which ended owing to the destruction of their Temple, dealt with in:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msacrifice.html,

by SDSTAFF Dex, I would like to offer my observation about what religion in fact is.

My idea of religion – and my attempt at a definition – from my own observations of its practice among religious peoples is the following:

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A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably toward the believer.
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I have not observed the religious practices of the Jews as a religious people similar to Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

My very close acquaintance however is with Christians of which I am a ‘card-carrying’ one myself.

So, if I am mistaken about the Jews and also Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., please correct me.

My observation is this namely that religion in actual practice is all about asking the power believed in to grant help or favor to the believer.

Whatever their doctrine on and practice of sacrifice, meditation, spiritual life, repentance, altruism, fasting, etc., it is still essentially asking for help and favor from the unknown power believed in.

If there are practicing Jews, Christians, etc., in these boards here, and they read this post from me, tell me if they do not in fact ask their unknown power or their God for help and favor all the time, and they expect also to obtain eternal life and happiness as well after death.

Buddhism seems to be in theory a religion that is not theistic or God oriented; but when you live among Buddhists, you will notice that they are always occupied in their practice of their religion with obtaining help and favor from Buddha and other powers that be in the Buddhistic spiritual world.

Please correct me if I am in error, with this observation of mine.

I think it is the same with all religions, whatever the detachment and transcendental orientation their mentors write about and talk about; but in actual practice, even among the mentors themselves, it all about getting help and favor from the unknown power believed in; and the process is by effecting affection and action to convince the power or to touch the power, so that it will dispense the help and favor of all kinds.

Tell me if I am wrong.

Susma Rio Sep

2

Susma, your comments are interesting, and I’m sure they will spark some discussion. While the Staff Report may have prompted your post, what you’re discussing is really more suited to Great Debates, so I am moving your thread there. You’ll get more responses, I suspect.

And, speaking for myself (and for most Jews, I think), prayer is not about asking God for favors. It’s more about being grateful, and expressing thanks… for life, for health, for sustenance, for all the beauty of the world.

3

Susma Rio Sep,

Let me give you my take on it as a “card carrying Christian”. I believe that most of what you said was in fact true but I find it quite limiting.

Your basic premise: “A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably toward the believer.”

In a Christian light could that not be rewritten “A Christian behavior founded on the belief in a fully unknowable God (that wishes us to know Him in as great a capacity as we can) resulting in an affection and action proscribed by their Creator (read “obedience”) by the believer to influence God to react favorably toward the believer”

So I see that as being true with a few caveats.

One, I don’t think we “influence” God toward a favorable reaction any more than you “influence” the justice system toward not arresting you for not murdering someone. I feel it is God’s desire that the default state would be total obedience by us and unlimited blessing by Him, so we don’t so much influence Him to give by being good, but rather influence him to withhold by being bad.

Two, while I find this definition limiting, I don’t find it all that much undesirable. I mean, isn’t commerce really “A human behavior founded upon a belief in a fair trade resulting in action (an offer) intended by the buyer to influence the seller to react favorably toward the buyer (accepting the offer and completing the transaction)”

I need things. Oxygen, food, comfort, etc. Why would it be a bad thing to act in such a way that the person or God you feel could provide it would be inclined to give it to you?
Really a lot of things would be considered “religion” by this definition. School learning religion could be “A (student) behavior founded upon a belief in a (teacher’s wisdom) resulting in (paying attention and taking notes) intended by the (student) to influence the (teacher) to react favorably (to impart knowledge) toward the (student).”

I find a more common and more accurate (albiet open-ended) definition as being: “The way in which humans relate to God”. So as far as Christianity, that would be pretty much just be obedience to His teachings, resulting in fulfillment of His promises. As far as expecting happiness and eternal life after death, well yeah, I also expect to get a soda from the vending machine in exchange for money because that is what the instructions said. If the bible said “And the Lord sayeth “Believe in Me and you shall still die and there is no eternal life, but I won’t torture you first” than I would expect that instead.

I don’t speak for all Christians or all religions, just for myself.

4

I avoid asking for anything except moral improvement. YMMV. I know I am flawed ans I try to steel myself against the inevitable tragedies and pains of life, because they dont really matter in the end. If I can get spiritual strength, I can deal with the rest, come what may. Man must endure.

But not without tears.

5

From Ambrose Bierce’s Devil’s Dictionary:

PRAY, v.
To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.

6

There’s a bit of an epistemological problem here. The word “prayer” really does mean asking God for something, and, sooner or later, that is a pretty good description of most worship by most religions. Unfortunately, it is also used to translate a good many Hebrew terms that mean something else, such as “berocha” or “kaddesh”. Jews do mostly worship without asking God for anything, but the English word “prayer” is extended to mean what Jews do – enough that saying “that isn’t what ‘prayer’ means” is technically true, but not very useful. One can only accept that the muddle is there and try to keep it straight in one’s own head.

I speak as an Episcopalian (Anglican) married to a Conservative Jew (which is, I suppose, roughly the Jewish equivalent of being Episcopalian).

7

While it’s not a bad definition, and it probably does cover a lot of practioners of various faiths, I think it is limited in some respects.

The main point that I would add is that rather than to seek the favor of God, we practice/ worphip/ pray to bring ourselves better into alignment with Him. There are many differing opinions about what this might entail, but mine, as a Christian, is that this is necessary in order to bring us into alignment with ourselves, and is a reward in and of itself.

Any other reward garnered is really just gravy.

8

I’d agree with Copaesthetic; that approach is also fairly common to the neopagan and reconstructionist pagan faiths that I’m most familiar with.

The religions I’m aware of have some essence of expected behaviour or rules for action, including guidelines for interacting with the divine; the goals are different, but they all have some sort of goal-state, even if it doesn’t expand beyond “a life lived in accordance with these principles because that’s the right thing to do”.

There exist religions (some forms of Judaism are examples of this, if I understand them correctly) in which belief in the divine is irrelevant; there exist religions (at least one major branch of Buddhism) in which belief in the divine is inapplicable. The religion is composed of the actions taken to bring one into harmony with a goal-state, not petitioning some power.

9

Thanks to all you who have reacted to my observation on what in fact is religion.
Before anything else, I am asking myself why I am trying to understand what religion in fact is from my own close-hand and hands-on observations of religion, directly among Christians, and in a manner to some extent among other religious peoples like Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.

Right away I seem to see that in religion there is a lot of inconsistencies and illogic or contradictory doctrines and observances and actual practices among the active adherents of a religion.

I say ‘active adherents of a religion’, because there are enlisted or self-acclaiming adherents who are not active practitioners; these subjects are worth another examination.

These latter subjects are what we might compare to humans who happen to be born human, but otherwise are not concerned with defining what is humanity, and therefore not exerting some thinking and doing to enhance humanity in regard to themselves and in regard to mankind at large.

Coming back to what I am occupied with in trying to understand what religion in fact is, it is namely to have a realistic picture of religion as it genuinely is being lived among, as I said, active practitioners.

And that is why I come to the definition or description of religion, that I gave at the start of this thread:

A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably toward the believer.

Allow me to be personal, even in an embarrassing way:

Many many years ago I used to want to know sex, to understand what it really is all about.

Now, I believe I know what sex is all about, from my own thinking, reading, observations of its actual practice among the active doers of sex and among the mentors of sex.

Modesty aside, I know what sex is all about now, and I am possessed of some kind of rest in regard to sex, in the cogntive domain of course; for in the libidinous domain, there is no rest until the R.I.P. one, when of course I would not be around to pose any relevancy to anyone in regard to sex, least of all to myself.

In regard to religion as it actually in fact is, I seem to be arriving if not yet already at the arrival platform of knowing what it is all about, from the standpoint of active religionists.

So, my purpose now is to find out from others who are curious, learned, thoughtful, self-reflective, experienced, and observant of life whether they might have the same conclusions I have on religion.

It is the same old quest of the spirit of man: seeking company in sadness and in joy and also in knowledge.
Thanks to you all for your reactions so far, I hope more will be forthcoming.
What do I think of your reactions?

Pardon me and bear with me; but generally the responses do not seem to be from personal observations and reflections of what religion in fact is all about, on the basis of actual, frank, honest, impartial acquaintance with religion, firstly, one’s own religion.

The responses give the impression to me that the reactants are not personally involved in an intrinsic manner: they seem to be reciting from the customary texts and preachments and routine understanding and pronouncements and ‘wisdom’ of religious mentors, who we might consider to be the professionals in their respective religions.

Let me allow myself an analogy, if you want to know what law and justice is all about, don’t go to the lawyers, congressmen, sanators, government officials; open your eyes and ears instead, and most important your mind, and see what the police, the politicians, the government officials are doing from their vantage point of being professionals of law and justice, yes, also lawyers.

Then you will have a real picture of what is law and justice.

Can we have a picture of religion without the reference to the words of professionals, namely, the founders and preachers and maybe purveyors of religion?

Susma Rio Sep

10

Not that I mind this, but I, along with many others on this board, am my own mentor. You’ll not be making fast friends that way :wink:

11

Actually, I believe that is the definition of magic: believing supernatural forces that can be harnessed for our own good.

Of course, most religions do have a certain element of magical thinking (asking for stuff, lighting candles, etc.)
Religion means, ethimologically, approximately “To rejoin”. It is simply the belief in supernatural being(s) which created us.

(Disclaimer: thats based on a high school theology course which I took years ago, so I could be misremembering…)

12

The etymology of “religion” is debated; the current preferred meaning is from “religare”, “to bind together”. Whether that is intended to bind together as a community or bind together with the divine (or, for that matter, both) is debatable; I have seen both points of view argued, most frequently on the question of whether an individual’s practices which have no referent to other practitioners are a religion or a spirituality. (I’m inclined to hold that if those practices can be expressed as guidelines or a rubric that would enable someone else to take up that same system, then it’s a religion.)

There exist religions that have no supernatural beings which created us, therefore it can’t simply be that.

As to the response from the OP, I can state firmly that coming from a faith that does not have such “preachments”, I certainly was not reciting from them. Given the number of people who explicitly noticed their personal tack as people who have religions, I am baffled by a claim that they are not personally involved.

13

Quote:
A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably toward the believer.

It’s no fun without the fear of eternal torture. This is why most people join a religion. The don’t burn me in hell forever syndrome or I want the 72 virgins and a couch or the I don’t want to come back as a dung beatle. This is why people dole out the cash. It’s protection money.

14

I am ful of remorse, for being a bit rash in alleging that reactants are not giving their own personal insights into religion, their own first of all.

Sincere apologies all around.

I must really change my way of thinking and feeling and speaking.

Someone wrote a very good book on “How to Make Friends and Influence People”.

In my case, I must watch out most cautiously that I don’t end up projecting myself as a book on how to make enemies and antagonize people.
Now, if I may impose on your patience further, with the promise that I would not be rash anymore, allow me to continue with what I would like to hear from you.
Can we agree that all of us here are born into a religion or into the actual religion our birthing as humans in a concrete social setting put us.

None of us is living a religion uniquely conceived and crafted by our respective selves.

That is true of ourselves and true of all others with a religion, except for those contemporary founders of a religion, always though not entirely new.

How can I explain what I really seek to hear from you, fellow board members here?

Then also I seem to be digressing into several akin issues.

So, let us just stick to my profferred definition of religion, namely:

A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably toward the believer.

May I ask then is there in our own practice of our religion and in our acquaintance with the religions of other peoples, an instance of a religious behavior that is not connected to an expectation however weak of a return from the power that be, believed in?

Susma Rio Sep

15

Good postulate, but I have one objection:

I don’t believe that the goal of following a religion (or more specifically, a deity/pantheon) is to try to make him/her/them like you. I believe that one follows such a path because that is what they believe is true. One follows the tennants of said religion because their subscription to that religion “demands” it.

As an example, I am not a christian for the primary reason that I want God to look at me favorably (though it would be nice). I am a christain because it is what I believe. I follow the tennants of my religion because it is what I feel is right.

As a side note, I do not believe in fire insurance. I think that the threat of a “hand on high” striking me down because I don’t worship him/her/them is an empty reason to put your basis in any faith.

But that’s just me.

16

Thanks, High Deity, for your reaction to my post.

You say:

Good postulate, but I have one objection:

I don’t believe that the goal of following a religion (or more specifically, a deity/pantheon) is to try to make him/her/them like you. I believe that one follows such a path because that is what they believe is true. One follows the tennants of said religion because their subscription to that religion “demands” it.

As an example, I am not a christian for the primary reason that I want God to look at me favorably (though it would be nice). I am a christain because it is what I believe. I follow the tennants of my religion because it is what I feel is right.

As a side note, I do not believe in fire insurance. I think that the threat of a “hand on high” striking me down because I don’t worship him/her/them is an empty reason to put your basis in any faith.

I see, you are different.

But if you look around among very active religious people in your personal circle, you will notice, I think, that they are into expectations of good things from God.

Recall the insight of Jesus HImself:

“First seek the Kingdom of God, and everything else will be added to you.”

I seem to see here an observation from the Master similar to mine.

He sees that religion is all about asking help and favors from God, and He uses such an attitude, to direct peoples to an even bigger good, the Kingdom of God.

That is eternal life in heaven, isn’t it? the supreme bonanza.

Susma Rio Sep

17

Susma, j’accuse of an overly cynical attitude! :slight_smile: Actually, I suspect that more than a few people do follow their faith out of fear of Hell or the retribution of God, but the overwhelming majority of those I’ve talked to at any length or depth on the subject, like High Deity and myself, do it because it’s right – because it’s the proper response to God’s love of us. I will concede that the fact that good things result from being Christian is a nice fringe benefit, but that’s all it is – and I can affirm that because my particular brand of belief subjects me to all kinds of snotty attitudes from both sides – the Neopharisees who believe that I’m “watering down the Gospel” and the hyperskeptics who believe that I had a lobotomy to believe in the first place.

18

Dear Polycarp,

I guess I am one very undiplomatic poster.

Didn’t I say that I am a walking book on ‘How to make enemies and antagonize people?’
There are reasons for me to change my attitude, after reading the reactions of very good people here.

Yes, there are people who are religious because they love God and want to please Him.
Why did God make me?

To know Him, to love Him, to serve Him in this life, and to be happy forever with him in the next.

That’s one of the first questions in my Catholic catechism classes.
Still I have this temptation to suspect that at the back of each religionist’s head there is the hope of reward from God.

God Himself promises the reward; He must know our hearts better than we ourselves.
Maybe the question should instead be 'What’s wrong with a religion consisting in eliciting affections and actions to influence God to react favorably towards us?
Shall we try to find out what’s wrong with that kind of a concept of religion?

Susma Rio Sep

19

Ah-ha! That my friend is what we call greed. Since the last few posts have centered around the christian religion, I’ll just stick with it for now. Under the christain belief, we have a temptor who lures us to do things that are not god’s will (aka. Satan/Lucifer/The Devil). The desire to want something in return for a service that should be given willingly is a temptation of greed implanted into your mind by Satan. Given, other forms of sin can take the place of greed in the above example (pride comes to mind). Note that God’s promised reward is simply payment for services rendered, it is what one deserves.

This post can spark off a lot of sub-discussions, i know.

20

This suspicion neither accounts for Jewish atheists nor those Buddhists who are of a path that has no divinities. I have been told several times that Judaism and atheism are not incompatible, because Judaism is a faith of correct actions, not of correct beliefs. Likewise, I do not know from your OP whether the Buddhists you know are of branches that have divinities, or rather if you are not able to distinguish between the invocation of a respected teacher’s name and the calling upon a god.

Personally, I do not happen to believe in “reward from God”. The traditional cookie from the gods, the afterlife, is pretty irrelevant to me personally, and even if it does exist, is a manifestation of natural law, not some sort of divine favor. Didn’t steal? Didn’t murder? Didn’t despoil the land or muck up the water? Didn’t take the food from children, didn’t pollute the marriage vows, didn’t commit fraud? Didn’t do any of the other things that shouldn’t be done? You’re in.

Is the afterlife something that motivates people to not do those things? Gods, I really hope not. I hope that those people who don’t spread malicious gossip, don’t commit armed robbery, and don’t do grievous harm to others do so because those are wrong actions.