Religion in fact is...

[Susma_Rio_Sep]

Dear Cat:

“Behold a true Israelite, in whom there is no guile.”

I must congratulate you, Cat, for being a pure simple and devoted Christian. I derive much edification on your exhortation. Really.

You remind us that God and Jesus are leading us to their divine presence by giving us or promising us earthly needs and wants, and we must not stop at the earthly needs and wants, but continue on to the divine presence. Still, you will notice, God Himself is promising Himself if we do react with our affection and action in a manner that will please Him. Hence my definition of religion is confirmed:

*A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably toward the believer.

God bless you!
Susma Rio Sep

*Originally posted by thecat *
**This might be a little off topic. allow me to digress. at one point a scripture was quoted and an interpretation given.
QUOTE:
But if you look around among very active religious people in your personal circle, you will notice, I think, that they are into expectations of good things from God.
Recall the insight of Jesus HImself:
“First seek the Kingdom of God, and everything else will be added to you.”
I seem to see here an observation from the Master similar to mine.
He sees that religion is all about asking help and favors from God, and He uses such an attitude, to direct peoples to an even bigger good, the Kingdom of God.
i’d like to clarify some points on this particular scripture if i may.
it’s found in Matthew 6 verse 33.
it’s actual wording is :
“But seek ye first the kingomd of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you”
He’s talking abotu specific things, not just things in general. this chapter itself is the continuation of the sermon on the mount. It starts out with Christ admonishing those gathered to not pray as the hypocrites using vain repititions thinking that they will be heard for much speaking. he answers this saying “…you Father knoweth what things you have need of, before ye ask Him.”
He then goes on to offer a formula for prayer, this being the Lord’s prayer. The bulk of this prayer is giving thanks, praise and asking for guidance and forgiveness. This is how Jesus wanted us to pray to our Father.
In verse 21 he says “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” he is talking about how one cannot serve two masters. If your treasures are on earth, if you are seeking wealth and fame any worldy thing then your heart is with those things and can’t also be with God, if your heart is not with God then you can’t follow Him and be like Him and you can’t be awarded eternal life.
then in verse 27 he says “Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?”
he tells them that worrying about what they will eat or drink or wear is wasted since God already knows you need those things. he then asks them to consider the lillies in the valley and illustrates: “That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.”
He then admonishes them for their lack of faith and says: “Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
Seekign the kingdom of God refers to obedience to commandements and following the example Christ gave on how to do that. the "these things’ which are referred to are the daily basic needs we have not the things we may want.
people practicing religion may being expecting good things from God because of their actions but if they do they’re missing the point. Consider Job, a righteous, beloved man of God who was horribly tried. it is true that blessings are predicated upon obedience but we are not rewarded with blessings, they are connected to that law that God himself is bound to. conversely our disobedience is not so much punished as we are held to suffer our own consequences. Our ‘reward’ is eternal life which is granted to us by ‘grace, after all we can do.’
i think in terms of your definition of religion, it is unfair to define a religion by observing those who claim to practice it…there are simlpy too many interpretations and sects many of which roaming further and further than the Author and Finsher of our Faith intended. saying that the power is unknown is an incorrect assumption seeing as how in order to be obedient to God we are first commanded to know Him. He therefore is knowable should diligence, patience, and faith be exercised. I think religion is a lifetime pursuit to know the Creator, to reflect and imitate His qualities in our life and eventually return to be with Him. I think all souls have a yearning in them to return home to be with God, and we act that out and struggle to understand it in many ways. how the world defines religion is irrelevant when your goal should be a personal relationship with heavely father, Jesus was trying to say that when tellign us to seek first the kingdom of God.
something i would like to try to add is that we can’t elicite reactions from God in fact I would think it’s much the other way around. He creates us, blesses us and then gives us information on the best way to live to be happy, safe, and on course. WE choose whehter to accept that or not and life unfolds. God isn’t reacting to us, we are reacting to him. He is always present doing what is in His will to do. WE choose to be aware of that or not. but either way His actions don’t change simply because ours do. As our awareness of Him grows and our ability to understand increases (which happens through our diligence and obedience) we begin to see things differently but this is absolutley not God reacting to us. IF any christian should seek one favorable thing it’s the phrase ‘well done thou good and faithful servant’ which we won’t hear untill we’re done on Earth, which means expecting any particular reward between now and then is futile anyway…you can say that religious people are looking to God for Favor, this they certainly are, that’s what we are asked to do with our lives, live in a way pleasing to God. Religious people can look to God for any reward they please, it has never ever meant they would get it. Don’t you think people would have figured out by now that doing what God wants doesn’t equal getting what you want and moved on if that’s all they were in it for. AS you seek to do God’s will the desires of your heart change and become righteous and then you do have all you need or want but what those things are are disapointingly uninteresting to those without righteous intentions.
listen: all of creation is involved in the worship of God. All of creation is invloved in obedience to His laws (science didn’t invent the laws of nature). WE often choose to live outside that and seek our own definitions and explanations for things, we have been given the freedom to do so, but that doesn’t make it true or right or useful. **

[Susma_Rio_Sep]

There is a habituated hesitancy, even reluctance, to the extent of resistance, to see the merits of this definition of religion from yours truly:

*A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably toward the believer.

That man should assure himself that he is seeking God without any self-centripetal orientation, that I think is due to the customary human vanity of showing himself as disinterested, in effect, autonomous, self-sufficient, in need of no others, not even God. Not different at all from a boy seeking a girl or a girl seeking a boy, and projecting himself as not interested, lest he appear vulnerable and needy and deficient and inadequate.

How dare man behave thus even with God? trying to convince God that he is seeking God without any self-interest, when a little thinking will show him that such a posture is impossible, when God is God and you are man with all man’s limitations and imperfections.

Yes, yes, you want to show God that you are not after His favors, but Himself only. Yet, isn’t Himself the most supreme favor of God to you? And you seeking God instead of His favors, isn’t that the supreme human selfishness? But selfishness is not in this case anything to be feel self-ignoble about, namely, in dealing with God.

Susma Rio Sep

[lekatt]

*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven *
**Susma, your comments are interesting, and I’m sure they will spark some discussion. While the Staff Report may have prompted your post, what you’re discussing is really more suited to Great Debates, so I am moving your thread there. You’ll get more responses, I suspect.

And, speaking for myself (and for most Jews, I think), prayer is not about asking God for favors. It’s more about being grateful, and expressing thanks… for life, for health, for sustenance, for all the beauty of the world. **

Speaking for myself (and for most NDEers), prayer is for giving thanks. I wrote the following quote several years ago and I believe that we (the whole world) can come together in love and prayer as soon as we realize we honor the same God, and He loves us all equally.

“Prayer is a way to reach God. It can not succeed until you realize that it asks for nothing. God answers all your questions before you ask; supplies all your needs before you request. Pray, then, to receive what is given; to accept what is already there. Real prayer is a melody of thanksgiving and love. Forget the things you think you need and let them go into God’s hands. Prayer is a time of stepping aside; letting-go of the world; a time of peace and solitude; a time to listen and love. God will answer you from the vastness of forever. His answers are for all of eternity, yet contain the specific knowledge you want or need.”

Love
Leroy

[zoo]

The position I described has the added bonus of not attracting the notice of those people around you.

[Zoe]

To thecat: Welcome! What a thoughtful post!

I regret that this post is so long. It’s easy to get carried away with a topic like this.

Susma:

A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably toward the believer.

I agree with you only in part. Yes, there are times when I pray in order to influence the power to react favorably (grant a request). But that is so far from the basis of my faith now.

I was born into a moderately liberal Christian family and certainly still find the influence of those early experiences in some of my beliefs. My father’s ability to live with such compassion for others has been and continues to be, a great influence.

I don’t see God or Jesus as a completely “unknown” powers. I believe that God is omni-present and knowable in that way. I know just enough to feel that the path I am taking is the right one for me. But for the most part, God (which I have come to think of as “the Great Cosmic Glue” is incomprehensible. Jesus seems more personal.

I don’t see relgion in terms of behavior. I see it in terms of beliefs which may or may have an effect on my behavior.

When you talk about “affection” are you speaking of love? For God? For our fellow human beings? For the Cosmos?

I don’t think that my actions (except the prayers that I mentioned) are based on human reward. I honestly think that I would be a Christian even if I didn’t believe in eternal life. And I think that I would feel compassion even if I didn’t believe in God at all.

My beliefs about the literal interpretation of the Bible began to change when I was 18. When I was in my thirties, I had an experience that changed my perception about “ultimate reality.” It lasted for perhaps five or ten moments – it is hard to judge time from a state of euphoria. Since then, I have believed that the great religious faiths as all leading to one God. Everything seemed to be One thing. And I could, for the first time, understand why Buddhists can desire non-existence.

I returned to that state for only a few seconds upon awakening one morning. But the memory of is very fresh.

I don’t try to figure things out so much anymore. I accept that I don’t know the answers. I feel comfortable with the “not knowing” but I remain open to the possibility of more growth. I feel comfortable in my Christian beliefs, but I am not troubled* by those who have another path – and that includes atheism.

*I continue to struggle with the words and ways of fundamentalist Christians.