Jello, looks like People for the American Way are already on this: http://www.pfaw.org/news/press//show.cgi?article=963861980
You might want to contact them. Good luck!
Jello:
Possible responses:
“If it’s so unimportant, why are you so worked up about it?”
“And I suppose the fact that you’re yelling at me for trying to express my opinion isn’t important, either?”
Eve:
Didn’t read Tom’s post, did you?
This whole is just plain stupid. How can you teach character traits? Be cheerful or get expelled?
Personally I don’t see how it’s worse to force someone to believe in God than to force them to have school pride or to be patriotic.
I’m surprised more people aren’t complaining that this law is completely idiotic and not just unconstitutional.
Back from another cheerful day at school…
Enh, they wouldn’t let me respond. That’s what I said to my friends, though, about them trying to strike down my opinions.
Thanks, tomndebb, for getting the law. That will help a lot.
Satan said:
That’s what I’m about to do. The same people who yelled at me for expressing opinions also said that there wasn’t such thing as church and state, but we’ll leave that for another thread and another time.
And interestingly enough…Georgia is controlled by a Democratic legislature and a Democrat is Governor. This Governor (Barnes) has a education plan (signed into law) that is very similar to George Dubya’s.
Just four more years of school…just four more years…(repeat)
Thanks everyone. I’ll let you know if I get a response from anything.
Ahh, the American educational system in action. Rote learning seems to be the only thing we can manage. As usual, any attempt at explaining why it’s good to have the 27 flavors of proper behavior is completely omitted from the law, and probably from the curriculum as well. We’ll just force them down kid’s throats, and if they start asking questions we’ll tell them they’re sick. Beautiful.
Actually, I have actively fought the whole “school pride” nonsense at my kids’ schools. (It’s an active part of their kindergarten experience.)
However, the thread started on the religion theme, so I initially laid off hijacking the thread.
i think you should research the legislatures policies on pollution. if there are any bad policies, describe them and use them as evidence that the legislature is not respecting the creator because it is allowing his/her works to be destroyed. distribute information about this hypocrisy thru the school system via the internet, and send it to the legislatures. LOL!
Dal TimgarMy high school did just fine with five character traits: Courage, Curiosity, Leadership, Integrity, Concern.
Works for me.
Konrad and tomndebb–
I would agree that forced patriotism and school pride are pretty loaded. Patriotism can easily cross the line into jingoism; “school pride” is just patriotism writ small, with the same inherent dangers.
Going through the rest of the list of “character traits” (and excepting the “creator” business) I still don’t have a problem. Is there anything wrong with teaching that some character traits are admirable, and others are not?
Is it not possible to be too non-judgmental? Is some behavior not objectively “wrong” and some behavior objectively “right” within the context of our societal norms and aspirations? Do we not have any common principles as a society?
Citizenship, honesty, fairness, respect for others, kindness, cooperation, self-respect, self-control, courtesy, compassion, tolerance, diligence, generosity, punctuality, cleanliness, cheerfulness, respect for the environment, respect for the creator, patience, creativity, sportsmanship, loyalty, perseverance, and virtue.
Sounds like a pretty good set of essential values to me. I don’t think they can be taught by rote, but they could certainly be incorporated in more subtle ways into the educational process, could they not? Anything wrong with at least paying lip service to these virtues?
Nah, I’d agree that 24 of the goals are admirable. I don’t even object to patriotism, off hand, (although I figure genuine patriotism is incorporated in citizenship and I don’t think we need a “course” in cheering the flag).
I do have a problem with “school pride.” People are sufficiently tribal and clannish by nature. Promoting it as an academic goal seems like overkill to me. And, as noted above, formalizing it is a perfect opportunity to stigmatize anyone who questions what is going on around them. Do we really need courses that encourage mob behavior? One of the most loaded terms in the work place is “team player.” It is routinely used by insecure managers to coerce bad decisions out of their employees by noting in their reviews that the independent or questioning individual (i.e., the person who does not disengage his/her brain as they enter the building), is “not a team player.”
Completely missed the point; didn’t you, Ren?
The point is “Why does the government of Georgia think it can get away with declaring ‘Respect for the Creator’ a proper character trait?”
Well I can’t think of any other creator other than your parents, but I would think the supreme court* would still make them change the wording on this to parents. Maybe they should just change it to something simple, like just “respect”.
There was something similar to this at my school, they had this survey that would rate how good you were in certain aspects, on a scale of 0-100 I believe, and you rated how much you agreed with each statement. “Religion” was an aspect, and so I ended up with a 10 on that catagory (Because at the time I belived in reincarnation). I’m planning to tell a few freshman about this to argue it with their teachers. Maybe they can get some good money out of this.
*Provided Bush doesn’t win AND get 4 of the 7 to be ultra-christians
Didn’t miss the point at all. I just think there’s a lot more wrong with the law than just that point. To wit:
A) Where is it even the function of government to pass ANY legislation mandating what is a “proper character trait”?
B) Why do we think we can instill “proper character” in children by passing legislation that mandates it?
And even if there were a good reason for A and B:
C) How do we expect children to adopt “proper character” if we don’t teach them why these traits are desirable?
D) And where are the parents in all this? Do we really expect schools to adequately substitute for them?
I mean, what’s next? Are we gonna start testing schools to see how well their students adopt “proper character” and reprimanding teachers whose students don’t get it?
[rant]
I think it’s manifestly perverse to pass legislation touting “respect for the creator” (et al) as part of some sort of panacaea for social ills, when the legislation itself is a glaring demonstration of the sort of disconnection from real compassion that “respect for the creator” purportedly instills.
[/rant]
27?! Shoot, our school only has three. Collabrative Worker, Responsible Citizen, and Effective Communicator. Nice and vague.
spoke sez:
Whether or not the traits are good or bad isn’t even that important. My point is that is pointless to pass a law to force schools to “teach” character traits.
What exactly are they going to do? Have a class where they define what honesty is and tell the kids it’s good?
I’m serious, what the hell are these people expecting? Do you think that some kid is going to say “Holy shit! That’s what honesty is! I didn’t know that. From now on I’m going to be honest cause I really didn’t know it was a good thing. It’s a good thing you pointed that out for me!”
Maybe a multiple choice test?
Cleanliness is: a)good b)bad c)mediocre d)a type of fruit
Does anyone but me see how blatantly stupid this is?
Obviously teachers are already supposed to encourage “good” character traits. How will making a special program help anything? Are there really teachers out there who are actively encouraging torture, treachery and larceny because they haven’t been told otherwise?
Arrrright Mike, you little shit, I would’ve given ya a split lip for that kind of behaviour last week but I’ll let it slide today on account o’ dis here program that sez we is supposed ta encourage creativity! But as soon as dis new class is over I’d better not catch ya displayin’ any of that creativity shit or it’s 10 kV across yer balls!
Four character traits that must be taught:
- Proper behavior (ESPECIALLY respect for other people and beliefs)
- Open-mindedness (self-explanatory)
- Friendship (i.e. try to make friends and not enemies)
- Wisdom (okay to look foolish, just don’t make a habit out of it)
These will get a kid a lot further than any amount of patriotism or piety.
And the problem with mandating religion is that it doesn’t work. You really can’t stick a square peg in a round hole, even if you pound all day. (Trust me, I’ve known too many incredibly square pegs…) Morality, like sexuality, is something that a person needs to discover on his/her own.
Jello, point out to the teacher that your objection was one of those “teachable moments” which would have been perfect for demonstrating
courage and virtue, i.e. standing up for what you believe in against popular opinion,
patriotism and citizenship, like respect for the constitution,
respect for others,courtesy, compassion, tolerance, i.e. your classmates respecting your dissent from religious indoctrination.
I’m just ticked. What makes everyone think they’ll stop at Christianity?
Well, if I count how many times I have heard of Buddhists infiltrating school boards and trying to insinuate reincarnation or karmic justice into the curricula, I come up with zero. Same for all the other religions I can think of as well. They just don’t seem to have the ‘indoctrinate and convert’ mentality of some Fundie Christians.
And I meant to add, it wouldn’t matter to me if it were Hindus, Buddhists, or pagans. The very idea of endorsing religion over nonreligion is offensive to me, and counter to the law of the land as interpreted by the SC.