religion vs. philosophy

I notice that one of the most frequently discussed topics in GD is religion. Just as well. This topic cropped up in class today.

  1. What is the difference between religion and philosophy? The class eventually agreed on that religion has a godhead figure that is the central focus, while philosophy is just a set of beliefs, a code of ethics to adhere to. To some extent, philosophy asks the questions to which religion gives an answer to. But doesn’t religion define your philosophy? Here, the distinction between religion and philosophy seems much murkier. Is Confucianism a religion or is it just philosophy?How does the God in religion differentiate it from philosophy? One way perhaps is the promise of afterlife or the eternal salvation of the soul. Yet, philosophers believe in the existence of the soul too; also, religion dictates morality; yet philosophy cultivates it. Why does one choose to partake in one and forego the other? (I’m thinking of aethists as an example)

  2. The difference between religions and cults is just size. Agree/disagree? I am of the view that the statement is true. (Bear in mind that i’m a catholic, and though i acknowledge the presence of other religions, i believe that mine is the one true faith) Why should one religion be favoured over the others? It might be argued that cults are damaging/deleterious to society in that they spread dangerous beliefs ie. breed suicidal tendencies (think Aum Cult) or self immolation. However, there are plenty of non-harmful cults too. I have a friend that holds the view that Mormonism is a cult (I disagree, however); what makes religion more ‘respectable’ than cults? A cult also holds a particular belief as true. If someone thinks that cloning is the way to spiritual salvation (think Rahaelians), why should anyone else care? So my question is threefold: what is the difference, if any between cults and religions; why is there inherent bias against cults (you might choose to disagree); and should the government do anything about it?

I know the last question covers a lot of areas, but i hope that this can stimulate discussion. I’d appreciate comments.

I’ll just sit back and watch my posts being picked to pieces. :smiley:

A philosophy seems to me to be a working document; it’s about constantly asking questions about ideas and beliefs to weed out assumptions and prejudices. It’s a mind discipline, a search for truth; you don’t accept anything without question.

If you subscribe to a particular religion, you have decided on what ideas and beliefs are acceptable to you. Hopefully, you are still objective enough not to accept the party-line without question, but, for some people this is where faith comes in; accepting against their instincts and critical faculties. A cult fits this definition but may just be a matter of size and longevity; if it stays the course and accumulates enough members it will become a generally recognised religion.

I should probably admit to being an atheist or humanist here, although I have problems with labels (and possibly commitment). I am interested to see how religions work but I’ve never found one that I needed.

  1. What is the difference between religion and philosophy? The class eventually agreed on that religion has a godhead figure that is the central focus, while philosophy is just a set of beliefs, a code of ethics to adhere to.

Okay, this will be technical and untechnical and thus open to a lot of potential criticism from other people who know about these matters, but I want it to be legible.

Firstly, no, that’s not philosophy. (And you’ve just defined religion as a subset of philosophy as well, since religion is also a set of beliefs, just including a belief about a godhead and its role in deciding ethical truth.) I think you’re confusing ‘philosophy’ with ‘life-philosophy’, which is just barging into ethics-territory. What sort of ethics is a life-philosophy and what is the differentiation between it and religion? Well, most (but not all) life-philosophies which are distinct from religion are subjectivist ethical stances based upon experience. This sort of way of thinking about ethics is partly along the track to a more successful metaethical theory (that is, a theory about what sort of ethics is best), but only if people realise why, which they never do. How is it different from religion? It’s to do with where the values are believed to be - do I judge, or am I judged?

Subjectivist ethics at its heart is far too basic. Something like ‘This has worked for me well in the past, let’s go with it.’ is a subjectivist claim that might underpin a life-philosophy. But it’s better than the worst sort of subjectivism, which is ‘I like this, let’s go with it.’ Obviously you can like the wrong sorts of things. You might be a child-torturer for example, and like it. But equally, you can value the wrong experiences. You can say ‘well, torturing that child was fun and no one stopped me, let’s go with it.’ Not a very good life philosophy.

The important thing about non-religious life-philosophy is that really, if it’s going to get very far, it needs to be antirealist. What is that? Well, (avoiding the technical description), instead of accepting that there really is a concept of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ in philosophical parlance, we accept that ethical questions instead want to find the answer to a different question. Not ‘is this right or wrong?’ but something else. Subjectivism demands that ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ become almost meaningless if it’s the case that what you like, or what has worked for you, is ‘right’. We all believe on some level that things can be just intrinsically wrong or right, regardless of what people think. (We might think that even if everyone on the planet thought child-torturing was right, it still wouldn’t be, which obviously isn’t a subjectivist position.) So this other question is the one we need to work out for any subjective-orientated theory to get much further. It’s a difficult question to find. Possibly the question stems from ‘should I do this, or should I not do this?’ Answering this question in subjectivist talk then asks, ‘is this right or wrong?’ and leads to the questions ‘do I like it?’ or ‘did it work for me before?’. Instead, under antirealism, after asking ‘should I do this?’ we should think instead slightly more widely. ‘Has this worked for me before, and has it worked for me for reasons that others would accept as being justification for action if all were exposed to them?’ Something like this.

An antirealist theory based upon life experiences might, for example, say the following. ‘I have considered my life, and always found that telling the truth worked best overall. When I consider other people I respect for their ability to promote harmony, I find that they have also been truthful. Therefore, I consider truthfulness to be closer to the correct way of acting than untruthfulness.’ (This is a little bit vague as an example and raises some unhelpful questions, but the idea is there.) What we are trying to do here is essentially aim our actions in a better direction than simply picking ideas out of the air. Our past actions should be our guide. If we do this, although telling the truth is not ethically ‘good’, it earns the right to be thought of as good, for all the past occasions in which it resulted in pleasing situations rather than unpleasant ones. This can be universalised (applied to all sorts of judements). ‘It has more often resulted in more pleasing situations whenever any person has not interfered in another person’s private life. Therefore, generally, we should respect privacy.’ for example. It need not say that privacy is the be all and end all, and is ‘right’ - it just needs to say that if we are treating our ethical theory as a guide to action, then there are strong reasons to favour privacy over invasion of privacy.

Another antirealist approach is to look to the future and not the past. If, before acting, I think to myself very carefully, being sure to rid myself of all prejudices (hmm), ‘if I were in someone elses shoes, would I want this to happen?’, then perhaps I can decide whether an action is right. If I think about myself in all sorts of different shoes, then I might see how my actions will affect different people. If I am not comfortable being in the situation they’d be in, then I must consider my action very carefully. This is the guide, rather than past successes of different types of action. (What sort of qualities it takes for some action to be better than another I bring up right at the bottom of all this.)

So that’s very loosely the way you can go with subjectivism and life-philosophy.

The alternative to subjectivism is objectivism. That is to reinstate the idea of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, and rather than saying what is ‘right’ has anything to do with what I personally think, there are some rules that exist whether I think about them or not, and my actions can be judged in degree as far as they accordance with them. This is the angle religion takes, although a lot of people are keen to take the attractions of objectivity in religion and taint it with their own variant subjective ideas. But ignoring that, there is some attraction. For a start, everyone is supposed to be doing the same sort of thing, and thus getting on okay. It’s unifying. Also, it takes the pressure out of having to decide - you just do what the rules say. But there are general problems with objectivist theories. For a start, everyone disagrees a lot in spite of these rules. It certainly doesn’t seem that the way the world works (ethically) is any evidence for an objectivist theory of ethics. It may be that this disagreement might be explainable, (e.g. ethics is hard, people just aren’t trying - if they really really looked, they’d see that the Bible has got it all right after all…) but it’s not good evidence that the theory is correct. The fact that everyone’s arguing about how to lead their life suggests that there is no right answer. No one is going to look at the various religions with their various objective theories and think ‘well, that’s certainly solved all the world’s problems’.

To me, this disagreement is a strong reason not to pick a religion as your starting point for ethics, unless you happen to believe in a God first. (But we all know philosophy has a lot to say about the extent God can be brought into a theory of ethics.) Religion as ethics causes as many problems as it solves, and I think it tends to shut people off to the actual point of an ethical theory - to guide action. More and more it seems as though christians are such in the dogmatic sense only - they obey these sorts of rules and believe these sorts of things. But no longer is it necessary (it seems) to be compassionate, or to see the point of these rules as anything other than a selfish way to getting oneself to the pleasures of heaven. I’d happily be Christian if it looked to me like Christian life was much more appealing than any other, but really, it seems to be marred overall with bigotry, hatred and secularism. This is not where ethics should find itself heading. When I find myself promoting other people’s interests a lot better is when I find that I’ve put myself in their shoes before saying anything. I don’t a religion for that.
So that’s a vague discussion of how philosophy, ethics, metaethics and religion all muddle together. It’s not conclusive, exhaustive, or perfectly expressed, but go read some philosophy books if it interests you. (Blackburn’s ‘Ruling Passions’ might be a place to start.)

One way perhaps is the promise of afterlife or the eternal salvation of the soul. Yet, philosophers believe in the existence of the soul too; also, religion dictates morality; yet philosophy cultivates it. Why does one choose to partake in one and forego the other? (I’m thinking of aethists as an example)

Philosophers USED to believe in the soul, but you’ll not find many who do at the moment. It’s all part of culling excess ontology. (That is, only believing things exist without actual evidence if you really can’t come up with a better idea.) But functionalism and various forms of materialism are looking like they might get somewhere in explaining the mind as a supervenience relation rather than a separate entity. (It might be that this afterlife business is just a load of tosh conceived because people thought there was a soul. Very disheartening if true!) But anyway. I think what we can say here is more that ‘cultivation’ is some sort of measurement for the antirealist. If it ‘cultivates’ then it’s probably the way forward, rather than whether it’s ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. So whilst religion looks at the soul as improved through its regulations, antirealism looks at general cultivation and refinement of life-experiences over time as the ethical guide.

All very complicated though. I don’t like ethics much anyway, I don’t think it should be part of philosophy at all.

Hope this helps a bit or is in some way interesting.

-James

My ET guest, Herr Martian tells us:

Philosophy is the continuous unending quest for the programming that exists or might exist or should exist in everything in the light of speculative reasoning.

Religion is a human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the unknown power favorably towards himself.

Susma Rio Sep

  1. Where philosophy may be the reasoned belief system of the philosopher, religion is the set of rules/rituals/lifestyle that he holds to, hopefully in accordance to his professed philosophy.

  2. Proponents of Religion A believe they hold to the truth, and that the proponents of Religion B are all going to hell, thus Religion B is a cult. However, proponents of Religion B believe they hold to the truth, and that the proponents of Religion A are all going to hell, thus Religion A is a cult. Size doesn’t matter. Since proponents of both religions think they’re right, and none of them want to see anybody go to hell, they are all busy proselytizing each other; after all, what’s more dangerous than a cult leading people to an eternity of suffering. So, who’s really the cult? You decide.

What happens if you have Religion C, which promises a “less uncertain” path but doesn’t absolutely guarantee any specific individual within or without that religion any specific results a priori?

The difference between religion and philosophy is based heavily upon an ethnocentric premise (the academic and intellectual categories of post-Enlightenment “Western Civilization” are automatically human universals) so vast and entrenched that most people will likely vehemently deny that the underpinning of the question is a prejudice and not a truly universal category for human thought.

Did the Epicurians practice a philosophy or a religion? They posited a form of atomic structure of matter that in its day could only be accepted as a matter of dogma.

Was Plato a philosopher or a preacher? He used an enormous amount of parable and “just so” stories to rationalize his claims.

Indeed, there are political and ethical philosophers in the modern era who seem to sound far more like they are propounding dogma than investigating questions (cf Marxism, feminism, etc.) Indeed, indeed, there are even epistemologists who look far more concerned with adhering to the proper dogmas of their individual schools than to actually tackling the basic questions. Instead, they have their pat answers and then spend the rest of their days merely defending their dogmas in ultimately circular fashion.

What is a philosophy? Perhaps it is simply a religion with great academic pretensions.

I don’t think you mean “religion” because your question is like “What is the difference between history and a barrel of apples?” A better comparison is between philosophy and theology. Philosophy is an academic discipline: theology is the defense of a PARTICULAR philosophical position.

The difference between philosophy and religion may have to do with the distinction between reason and revelation. The philosopher works by thinking and trying to figure things out for himself. Many (most?) religions have an element of revelation to them: what they teach is based on what was purportedly revealed (eg. by God) to human beings, as opposed to what people could discover by human reasoning.

More than just that, though, Apos; I don’t see, for example, people who hang on Hume’s every word as theology types.

A philosophy is a view of reality and our relation to it. It contains two main branches: metaphysics and epistemology - and three subsidiary branches: ethics, politics and esthetics.

A religion is a philosophy whose metaphysics center around one or more greater-than-human beings, and whose epistemology is based on mysticism.

There are also quasi-religious philosophies with mystical epistemologies, but without a greater-than-human being.

This does **not **imply that all secular philosophies are based on reason.

Phronema. This is the word some folks might be grasping for.