Religion

[Aldebaran]

*Originally posted by Methos *
[Another thing that has come to mind talking about this. I would like to think that if the situation were to arise where I would have ABSOLUTE unquestionable proof that god does actually exist, that I would change my point of view.

First of all I would ask you; do you have absolute unquestionable proof that God doens’t exist and if you have, what is it?

Yet at the same time, I get the feeling (and this is of course just personal observation)that most religious people, if presented with facts that god did NOT exist, that they would still not change their beliefs on the whole situation.
right, wrong???

Well, if you have the absolute undeniable proof of the fact that God doesn’t exist, I think you will have in no time a worldwide audience for your presentation of these facts and you should be able to convince all the people on this globe in not time.

(I’m not sure what you mean with " that still would not change their beliefs on the whole situation").

Salaam. A.

[Methos]

First of all I would ask you; do you have absolute unquestionable proof that God doens’t exist and if you have, what is it?

Don’t be silly, of course I do not have unquestionable proof that he doesn’t exist. But based on my research, and stuff that I have learned and been taught, he does not exist.
Unlike the church, which ‘feeds’ you information of their beliefs from a single source (The Bible), my teachings and my knowledge has come from a great number and varied sources, which is why I tend to believe them a great deal more.

[_O_o_1]

*Originally posted by Aldebaran *
**First of all I would ask you; do you have absolute unquestionable proof that God doens’t exist and if you have, what is it?

**

There is no reason to believe god exists.

Therefore, why should one believe that god exists?

That is the evidence.

Logic itself.

Deduction.

[Methos]

hahah, very simplistic…I like it

[Aldebaran]

O_O,

Where did you find the reason for not believing that God exists?
Methos,

I would be a bit helpful for the discussion if you mentioned some of your sources.

Salaam. A
Salaam. A.

[Methos]

Where did you find the reason for not believing that God exists?

Hahahaha, that could take a while, Ill try to be concise.
Firstly, and most obvious, from my parents and what they taught me, that was my first ‘source’.
One I got old enough to actually think a bit more independently, I looked into it in more depth. My sources would have to come from my studies at University. I have taken a couple Philosophy classes, where ONE in particular discussed the belief in god and whether or not he/she/it exists in Great depth. The prof I had as well as the majority of the class put forth some very convincing points against his existence (sorry I can’t give more detailed examples, it was two years ago).
finally, the last sources comes from my studies in Classical Studies (that is ancient Greek and Roman Civ.). I’m not trying to offend anyone, let me be clear about this, this is just my opinion, from what i’ve read, it seems to me and a bunch of my friends that the church was more of a ‘business’ than anything else.

So I guess you could call those sources/hunches, but thats where I get my information from

discuss away Aldebaran

[dangermom]

Firstly, and most obvious, from my parents and what they taught me, that was my first ‘source’.
One I got old enough to actually think a bit more independently, I looked into it in more depth.
[snip]…finally, the last sources comes from my studies in Classical Studies …

And you do not feel that any religious people do the same, and come to different conclusions? Or that anyone might go from atheism to belief in a similar manner? Do you feel that any religious person who does a little research will ‘see the light?’ Are all religious people disinclined to research and reading?

I must say, I find your assertions that people from religious families are incapable of ‘opening their minds’ or changing, because it’s been bred into them somehow, to be both insulting and shallow. Do you think something similar might have happened to you? Or are atheistic families superior?

[Skeptico]

I was actually interested in her (how did you know? lol). And that’s why we have discussed this topic before, but not in as much detail as this time. My problem with what you wrote is that, if she is worth it, I should sit in church, listening to something I purely disagree with, give money to a system i disagree with, and basically fake my belief in it. That in itself is a huge problem because it would go against what I believe in (lying to a great extent).

Methos, I’m an atheist. To me, religion is not important in my life. I’m in a situation similar to yours: my girlfriend is a very devout catholic (she even won Best Sunday School Teacher award in her church this year). I really don’t care what religion she believes in, since I view it as insignificant as her fascination over a certain 80’s movie. To heathens like us, religion should be a non-issue.

How do I “sit in church, listening to something I purely disagree with”? I’m from the school of thought that one can’t really be an atheist without being a theist, or at least seriously considering it.
Why? Because their story is just too good to pass up. It’s like giving a kid the choice between a cotton ball candy and a math book. The idea here is that some of us come to the conclusion that the probability of receiving the cotton ball candy is very, very low and is never coming. The former believer becomes an atheist.
So I encourage my girlfriend to attend church – it’s the first step in the path to atheism. Besides, I always learn an interesting thing or two in a sermon – it’s not all that bad.

From her point of view, she’s trying to convert me into catholicism. It’s the old girl-falls-for-bad-guy-and-tries-to-change- him storyline. It’s rather illogical for catholics to be in relationships with people they won’t get to see in heaven, but you have to remember that women don’t think in logical a-b-c steps like men! It makes sense for them if it fells right for them. They’re emotional, intuitive. They listen to their hearts, not to their minds, when it comes to relationships.

(I used to be a christian. I went to christian schools until college. I pretty must lost all ‘faith’ by 11th grade. It’s not hard to lose faith. The world is never short of church revelations. Today’s headlines of child-molesting-fathers is simply replacing yesterday’s nuns-having-abortions… )

[Methos]

And you do not feel that any religious people do the same, and come to different conclusions?

Honestly, I don’t. I think that SOME are quite narrow minded. That said, im sure that there are religious people who would be more open minded and do some of their own research.

I must say, I find your assertions that people from religious families are incapable of ‘opening their minds’ or changing, because it’s been bred into them somehow, to be both insulting and shallow.

I never said that they were incapable, I said that in MY PERSONAL experience, they were LESS LIKELY to do ‘open their minds’.
And I’m not too concerned that you think my ideas are shallow/insulting, because they are my ideas, and unless you can convince me otherwise, (and by all means, please try)I’m likely to continue thinking that way.

[Aldebaran]

We had philosophy as obligated part of the program at the univ, both the Western and Muslim philosophers.
Extremely interesting study, yet it didn’t make me doubt one single fraction of a second about the existence of God.

I have a question:
Did you ever observe a tiny little creature like for example a fly and do you know which fantastic mechanism its fragile wings use to make it able to lift up like a helikopter?
Do you find in philosophy every answer on the mystery as how all those millions and millions different (and for us even partly unknown) creatures can exsist, each in their own perfection?
(Like: A fly is only a fly because you perceive it as a fly…)

Don’t you think you are yourself victim of what you accuse relgious people of: looking at the issue with a narrow one sided influence and onse sided focussed view?

Salaam. A.

[Methos]

(Like: A fly is only a fly because you perceive it as a fly…)

Hahahah…oh man this takes me back to my philosophy classes…and is giving me a headache. You can get real “deep” if we start talking like this, lol.

Don’t you think you are yourself victim of what you accuse relgious people of: looking at the issue with a narrow one sided influence and onse sided focussed view.

I would think not, simply because I have weighed all the options that have been presented to me. I have tried to see it through my close friends point of view, I just find her answers to my questions (and many other ppls answers for that matter) unsatisfying. As I mentioned before, if someone gave me a really good and unique reason explaining god to me, if it made sense to me, I would like to think that i’d be open to entertaining this idea. But soooo many different people (including profs and other students) have had similar points as myself with regards to religion, that is it hard to ‘switch’ sides at this point, their points are just too convincing, ya know what I mean?

[Aldebaran]

Well, try to start thinking about the miracle of the fly and wonder where it comes from.

If you have the answer, I’m all ears (eyes, actually).

Salaam. A.

[dangermom]

quote:

And you do not feel that any religious people do the same, and come to different conclusions?

Honestly, I don’t…That said, im sure that there are religious people who would be more open minded and do some of their own research.

Certainly, there are narrow-minded people on both sides. However, if you really feel that the vast majority of religious people do not study their beliefs or those of others, you must not have been here for very long. As an example, I’ll tell you a little about myself. I am not one of the brighter religious minds on this board, and am usually totally outclassed in religion threads. But I do make an effort to be reasonably well-educated. I have a BA in Comparative Lit from Berkeley (which included studies in Classics, as well as ancient Norse, Indian, and Celtic beliefs) and a Master’s in library science. As a librarian, I can find whatever information I want, and read everything I can get my hands on. My tastes run to non-fiction, and I will read history, religion, medicine, archaeology, current events, whatever. I try to be somewhat educated on religious traditions besides my own, but I confess that most of my religion reading is within my own belief system, which is LDS. Although I think I study it quite a bit, there are many people in my congregation who are far better informed than I am, and the really smart people I know leave me in the dust.

I have always been encouraged to ask questions and try to find answers, and to study others as much as I can. Joseph Smith’s constant refrain was “don’t take my word for it; find out for yourself.” I try to do that, and so do many others I know.

Because the world inside religion is largely invisible to those outside, many people make the mistake of assuming that there isn’t much to it. It’s a false assumption, based on lack of intimate knowledge. (A corollary is that religious people are obedient sheep; anyone who has held a leadership position in a church can tell you that it’s more like herding cats.)

[Aldebaran]

Genie…

You are a librarian?
One of the life saviours who help to find that one single piece of dusty document nobody else ever cared for? Lunatics like me who disturb you with the most unreasonable demands?
A classifyer of extreme diversity that receives by your imput even something logical in its arrangement?

You deserve your membername…

Salaam. A.

[Methos]

Because the world inside religion is largely invisible to those outside, many people make the mistake of assuming that there isn’t much to it.

Hey genie, the OP of this thread, and the girl I was talking about is a very close friend. Even more, her brother is one of my BEST friends, so I have been introduced somewhat into religion that way. By going over to their house and spending time with them and their parents. I have even been over around Christmas and Easter and I get to learn a great deal. I’m by NO MEANS well educated in it, but I do get to see some of those little ‘behind the scenes’ moments. So im slowly learning

[GodlessSkeptic]

Karl Marx never said “Religion is the opiate of the masses”.It is a misquote.I don’t have the link handy but if you do some googling for refereences to this you will find that what Marx said was actually quite different.

Carry on with your religious debate.

[lekatt]

*Originally posted by Reepicheep *
**Actually this one I rather disagree with. I was raised as an agnostic/atheist. What I was told, from the time I was very little, is that people who believe in any god are deceived by the minister if they are in a developed country, or ignorant of the truth through lack of opportunity for education, if they are from an undeveloped country. This message was sent from my both my parents and my grandparents. If there was a god it was unknowable by humans and people who believed in it were foolish.

How does a child rebel against liberal parents? By becoming conservative. I just chose religion as my form of conservatisms over politics. However, surprisingly I found something real in what I had always been told was false. I didn’t have then, and still don’t have objective proof to offer about my sense of connectedness with God. However, well past the age that rebellion against parents should be over my belief has remained strong. I know, from objective observation, that I am much happier than my cousins, who were raised as I was.

Does this mean I am a better person than they are, purely because I believe in a Deity and they don’t? Decidedly no. It does mean I use a different scale when evaluating choices I can make in my life. That may have been what your **

Really good post.

I bounced around from theist to agnostic back to theist.
The connection to God is the key.

Love

[johnnyk]

*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic *
**Karl Marx never said “Religion is the opiate of the masses”.It is a misquote.I don’t have the link handy but if you do some googling for refereences to this you will find that what Marx said was actually quite different.

Carry on with your religious debate. **

Here is the actual quote without paraphrasing. It’s not really all that different:

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world - It is the opium of the people.

— Karl Marx

Regardless of how it’s worded, the statement pretty well sums up “Religion” as opposed to “Belief”.

[Beryl_Mooncalf_1]

IMHO…

SkepticoFrom her point of view, she’s trying to convert me into catholicism. It’s the old girl-falls-for-bad-guy-and-tries-to-change- him storyline.

Skeptico, I think you are wrong about the -bad-guy- thing. I would bet your girlfriend doesn’t think your’re -bad- either. I was trying to point Methos this way too, we’ll see.
Beryl

[Methos]

point me which way Mooncalf???