Religious Confidentiality and AA

Great Debates
41

Only an AA member could spout this and think they are making sense. Part of any cult is the acceptance of irrationality and accepting your doornob as a higher power is a giant step in that direction. The reason AA keeps spouting that is because belief in your doornob is a baby step towards belief in a real higher power. You know how they like baby steps.

The 12 steps have nothing to do with drug dependencies and everything to do with religion. While AA itself doesn’t look much like a religion it is undoubtedly a religious group. If you think you can be an atheist and really be working the 12 steps you are deluding yourself but that is ok because the only value AA has has nothing to do with the 12 steps anyway.

Spoofe’s experience has been with a tolerant group it seems. For many the introduction to AA more closely resembles cult indoctrination. He can play around with the 12 steps but try a treatment center where progress is mandatory. There is an old saying in AA that no one is too stupid to work the 12 steps but you can be too smart.

So back to the topic, while AA is a religious group there has never been any privilege recognized simply because a confidence is within a religious setting. It is only confidences with a spiritual advisor privilege has ever been recognized. This is an old an recurring problem for AA given the requirement to confess all. People are generally not warned that confessions could cause them problems. Many treatment centers have resolved the issue by limiting this step to the member and a minister.

42

Ned, I would like to know where you’re getting your information. Seriously.

I am an 8-and-a-half year veteran of AA, NA, and have had experiences with Overeaters Anonymous and Al-Anon. At NO (and I wish to emphasize the NO) time have I ever been forced to do or believe in something that went contrary to my better judgment, religious upbringing, or even mere common sense.

I also wish to emphasize that I am a Jew, have always been Jewish, and have no intention or desire to convert to anything else. Moreover, I have managed to stay sober and keep my identity as a Jew.

This is something that I found in the AA literature that describes its feelings on religion:

And that is what AA has to say about religion.

Robin

43

And I suggest you turn your big book to the chapter for athiests. It says they are misguided and will accept the existence of God if they just think about it a bit. My information stems from AA publications and personal experience. I have certainly seen it explicitly spelled out in AA readings regarding the stepping stone nature of beliefs in vague or silly higher powers.

It is simply a device to get people thinking in terms of powerlessness and reliance on a higher power. Putting the group into a position of the higher power is a small improvement but isn’t rationally going to accomplish what the 12 steps suggest it needs to in order to find your salvation. Perhaps you would like to try explaining to the folks another reason for accepting a soap dish as having a power greater than ones self. Normally we call this schizophrenia.

AA is an organization in denial about themselves. It is so rife with contradictions any rational person making an honest effort to understand risks finding themselves in a state of cognitive dissonance. It may not look much like any other religion but you have to be willfuly blind to deny its religious nature.

44

Gee Ned, I just looked in my copy of Alcoholics Anonymous, and there is no such chapter. There is a chapter entitled “We Agnostics” which isn’t quite the same thing.

The chapter refers to admitting to the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence or a Spirit of the Universe.

You may call “God as you understand him” just “weasel words” if you want. But take them at face value- I know Jews, Buddhists and agnostics who are happy and sober because of AA and the 12 steps. I have been sober for over 10 years, and have never once had to accept someone else’s concept of God as my own. Besides, why would I want a Catholic higher power anyway? :smiley: Sure, many meetings say the Lord’s Prayer. It is my understanding that this practice came about by virtue of the fact that AA started in middle America, and it was the only prayer that most everybody knew and could say together. Not all meetings say it; it depends on regional preferences.

I find it hard to believe that your opinions come from personal experience with AA, although I suppose you could have hit a bad meeting on a really bad day once. More likely, you had huge misconceptions going in and only listened to what fed them and made them stronger. You sound bitter, disillusioned and pissed. Want to share? :wink:

45

OK, even with the sly smiley, that last bit was rude and I apologize. I was just taken aback by the venom in Ned’s posts.

My bad.

46

What needs to be emphasized, and I am sure spooje and EJsGirl will agree, is that 12-step organizations are by definition human. Different groups do things differently. I’ve walked out on meetings because the message was not one I cared to hear.

One incident I remember clearly happened when I was first sober. A nice gentleman cornered me and told me I’d never stay sober unless I accepted Jesus as my Higher Power. I’m still sober. He relapsed a few months later. I’ve heard people completely bewildered by the fact that they were alcoholics; after all, they were such good Christians that they shouldn’t become alcoholics.

All that’s required to attend an AA meeting is a desire to stop drinking. That’s it. No one says you have to adhere to any set of religious beliefs. IF anyone does (and that’s a HUGE if), they’re not speaking for the whole of AA, so please feel free to ignore them.

Robin

47

No need for appologies, the tone of my post was undoubtedly perceived as equally insulting to yourself. I find it difficult to critique AA in a manner that is appropriately respectful to its members.

It has been some time since I browsed the big book and while I may have forgot the title the content remains fresh. Read your “we atheists” chapter again, it should be titled “we who also used to be deluded atheists.” The chapter makes chrystal clear that belief in God is a necessary and central part of dealing with dependancy.

Now it is true that there are individuals who can maintain that they are atheists while also professing belief in a higher power but they are simply demonstrating the ability of people to hold contradictory beliefs. For others who are repeatedly told they must accept a higher power to save their lives the stress of dealing with this sort of cerebral disconnect is palpable. There is something sureal about watching young intelligent people with real problems in their lives agonizing about accepting their refrigerator magnet as a higher power because they are so desperate to improve their lives. That is the sort of sight that has made me bitter about AA.

You seem fixated on the idea that AA has no specific concept of God and does not preclude acceptance of a variety of other religious beliefs. This may differentiate it from other religions but it hardly renders it secular. You focus on the differences between AA and your concept of organized religion while forgetting the similarities and central importance of belief in a deity.

48

Why does the concept of a higher power necessarily have to be God? Although I consider myself Christian, I have gotten into several discussions about whether morality and atheism can go together. If there is no God, can murder, or anything be considered morally wrong?

I think it can. It seems perfectly reasonable that murder can be a moral no-no without the concept of a God. We shouldn’t commit bad crimes because we are human. Humans are evolved to where it is wrong to kill a human, because it is a human.

I know several avowed atheists who have gone to AA or other addiction groups and found their higher power in any number of things. For my best friend’s dad, it was his family. For another person, it was the higher power of humanity, that people should be above this. One poster above mentioned free will as his higher power. There are many different higher powers that are completely non-religious.

49

Ned, how many meetings have you been to? How many people in recovery do you know?

50

Ned, you claim that the content of Alcoholics Anonymous is fresh in your mind, but you are dead wrong about what it says.

And about AA in general, frankly. AA does not promise salvation, nor does it encourage it’s members to seek salvation. Salvation is something a sinner seeks through his or her religion.

In AA, sick people try to get better. It’s not about bad people getting good. I have to second spooje’s question about your actual experience with recovery, but I don’t expect a straight answer because I believe the question has already been asked and avoided.

My friend is a Hare Krishna vegetarian lesbian member of AA. I can guarantee you that she has no interest in Christianity as a religion, and yet the concept of a Higher Power fits in with her beliefs just fine, as it does with the Jews and others who have already posted to this thread. Go figure.

This sure has turned into one hell of a hijack (sorry, Eve), but I felt that ignorance was being spread so I jumped right in! A bad habit, I know.

51

The We Agnostics chapter is here: http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_4.html
I think my comment was entirely accurate and will leave it to any who are interested to read it for themselves.

I would say AA is typically schizophrenic on this question. Half the time your sick, half the time your sickness manifests itself as moral failings.

I have already stated that AA is compatible with other religious beliefs. You seem to think this proves something, I don’t. AA states that the only way to health is to work the 12 steps and turn your life over to God. No, they won’t toss you out the door if you refuse and the members are usually good people who only care about your desire to improve your life. This does not change the nature of the organization either.

My experience has been with a minnesotta model treatment center. As such it would be far more intense than just attending meetings.

52

Different treatment centers do things differently. A good one like Hazelden (who pioneered the “Minnesota Model” concept) recognizes each person’s need to find his or her own spirituality, and works to help each person with that. I’ve had the pleasure of talking with some of the counselors there, and when the discussion turns to spirituality, they’ve always been very respectful of those who believe differently.

On the other hand, some treatment centers work to push a specific viewpoint. Some combine what might be accurately described as a religious viewpoint with the Steps. Others are simply limited by assumptions.

Please don’t paint an entire movement on the basis of one bad experience, even if it was for 28 days. There are meetings all over the country. Some are religious emphasis meetings (usually by virtue of geography), others are not. And most people don’t give a rat’s heinie what church (or synagogue or mosque) you don’t go to. And the ones that do, it’s none of their damn business.

Robin

53

**

I tried to stay out of this debate, for fear of getting off track of the original OP. But I can’t help myself. the quote above is completely false, as far as I can see. In 12-step programs, sick people do NOT try to “get better.” They admit that they are sick and will ALWAYS be sick…never cured of the offending “disease.”

My experience is actually with OA, and not AA or NA. From this experience (admittedly, not a cross-section study of the entire 12-step population and their respective opinions) there is no way you can consider that a 12-step program is not a religious organization.

As someone with an eating disorder that was making me miserable, I tried desperately to find a 12-step group within OA that focused on solving the problem of the eating disorder, rather than converting members into spiritual people. I have always felt that the eating disorder revolved around problems concerning food and eating, and not problems concerning my spiritual life. If I may be so bold, I’d like to assume that the problem with alcoholism is alcohol and not lack of a “higher power.” Certainly, the problem is more complex than that. In cases of eating disorders as well as other substance abuse, it involves issues of self-hatred and other deeply held problems.

However, I still contend that recover from an eating disorder or substance abuse problem MAY be easier for SOME people with the help of a “higher power” this is NOT the ONLY WAY in which to get better, as OA members (and I assume AA as well) will teach you, beginning during your very first meeting.

I began attenting OA meetings in one particular location and found that the Lord’s Prayer was part of the meeting. I also found that almost every conversation I had–with my sponsor and with other members–revolved around the fact that I hadn’t yet “found my higher power.” People in meetings made comments such as, “I used to be too SMART to believe in god, but now I know better and my life is changed.” So, I attempted to find a group of people focused more on solving the problem than on discussing how a higher power is the only answer. I must have attended 20 different group meetings in 20 different places, searching desperately for help with an eating disorder. Some specific meetings I attended numerous times, some only once before I realized that the entire point of the organization is finding a higher power, at which point, your disease will be under control.

The notion that a person has any REAL anonymity within a group in which you hand out your phone number and tell your life’s story is almost as ludicrous as the idea that 12-step programs do not constitute religous organizations. Of course what is said in the meetings isn’t privileged or protected information! There’s no real authority amongst any of the members. It’s even possible that all the other members at any one meeting are still abusing themselves with their drug of choice. These people do not constitute an authority figure the way a priest or minister does. They only THINK they do in some cases.

While these programs have undoubtedly helped countless numbers of people who indeed ARE comforted by gaining their own spiritual viewpoints, it is still wise to “beware the man with one book.” Anyone who tells you they have the ONLY way to solve your problems should be avoided. For some people leaving out the “higher power” entirely and concentrating on the actual problem at hand makes much more sense than simply learning to consider the family dog as their higher power.

-L

54

Thanks for the clarification Ned, except that treatment centers are not affiliated in any way with AA. They may utilize the steps, or cart patients to meetings, but their philosophy is their own. I’m sorry to hear that your experience was more negative than positive. But what about a “spiritual basis for life” contradicts what Robin, others and I have been saying? Spiritual does not have to mean Christian God.

I stand by my “sick people getting better” comment. From Alcoholics Anonymous, page iii- “We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred (in 1939) men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body”- bolding mine.

SexyWriter, I contend that, while I will always be an alcoholic, drinking is not my primary problem today, because I don’t drink. You also mentioned- "If I may be so bold, I’d like to assume that the problem with alcoholism is alcohol and not lack of a “higher power.” The problem was indeed alcohol, however the solution is spiritual as well as practical.

55

No, the solution that worked for YOU was partially spiritual. For some that’s only a distraction and can even be a hindrance rather than a solution.

56

We do try, and succeed , at getting better. We stop using, we stop committing crimes, we stop using and hurting other people, we gain perspective, we become productive members of society.

A real-life comparison:

I am a diabetic, also. For a while I tried to deny it. I ate sugar like it was going out of style, I never tested my blood sugar, and rarely saw my doctor. I began to experience serious complications that were of my own making. I got a blood test back from doctor, and he told me that at the rate I was going, I could expect my kidneys to shut down within a couple of months.

I was sick. I had a disease(diabetes) that was treatable, but I was making myself sicker and sicker. Then I saw the light(or was scared shitless, it amounts to much the same). I started to watch what I ate. I exercised. I tested my blood sugar and saw my doctor regularly. My health improved considerably. I still had a disease that required daily attention. But by attending to it on a daily basis, I was in very good health and able to live a decent life.

It is exactly the same with addiction. So EJ’s statement is true.

57

So are we completely off topic now or what?

58

Yeah.

One point that I’d like to make to SexyWriter is that alcoholism/substance abuse and eating disorders are worlds apart. We don’t need alcohol or drugs to survive, but we do need to eat.

The underlying principle behind all 12-step programs is that if you work on the problems behind the disorder, the disorder, as if by magic, goes away. Spirituality is one part of that. It doesn’t have to be a large part, or even any part.

Robin

59

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MsRobyn *
**

Yes, of course that’s something commonly discussed in 12-step meetings and in other discussions of food-related problems. However, no matter the difference between the problems, food is treated EXACTLY as alcohol in almost every respect in OA. The AA Big Book is used…the same 12 steps are used, inserting the word “food” for alcohol in every case. The only way in which it’s treated different, is that a food plan has to be used, since people DO have to eat. However, the substances of sugar and flour are considered as alcohol for the alcoholics…addidtive substances that are to be avoided under any and all circumstances. Thus, my experience with this form of substance treatment is likely quite similar to that of other 12-step programs.

60

What I was trying to say (unsuccessfully; it’s been a slow morning) is that not all problems can be addressed within the framework of a 12-step program.

I’ve attended OA meetings and have been thoroughly disgusted by some of the things I’ve heard coming out of the mouths of some of the other people there. One of these is the notion of avoiding flour and sugar. I’ve also heard a list of fad diets that would make your hair crawl. So I learned to eat properly and quit going to OA. Problem solved.

Robin