What are the thirty universities you say are actively studying near death experience (leaving aside the point that a university as a whole does not study anything)?
And still no real evidence of that detached consciousness of which you speak.
Homeopathy has been “studied” for far longer. It continues to have a host of believers, despite abject failure of its central thesis, remaining a disreputable wart on the body of science.
Longevity does not make a flawed idea valid.
Here’s a thought. My own experience came at a point of high anxiety. Surely we might call near death a high anxiety moment. Perhaps there is a trigger level in which the body releases a certain chemical in the brain to help us cope with high anxiety. Something similar to adrenaline but in the brain.
The problem is, I’m sure some folks that have NDE are not in a position of high anxiety because they have no anticipation of being near death, unless, even in an unconscious state their subconscious realizes the situation.
The other issue is I’m sure there are many cases of high anxiety much worse than mine. Why wouldn’t we hear of cases of something similar to the peace I felt in other high anxiety moments if it’s strictly biological and/or neurological.
I gave you a link to an experimental surgery. That was controlled in all aspects by instruments of science and doctors who said there was no medical explanation of what happened. It is considered the best evidence of separation available.
But I do realize that if someone is closed to a possibility then they actually can not see it though it is right before them.
There are many examples of this in history and studies. When Columbus first came to this part of the world. He anchored his big ships and came ashore in small boats. The natives could see the small boats but not the big ships anchored out a bit. As time passed the medicine men began to see the big ships and point them out to others until all could see them. They had no concept of such large ships and could not see them at first.
Then there is the experiment with kittens, they took a litter of kittens and put half in a room with no vertical lines and the other half in a room with no horizontal line. After a few weeks, they switched the kittens. The kittens ran into everything, they had no knowledge of the lines and ran into them.
I think you could find both these things on the internet if you wish. You see your beliefs filter out those things you have rejected as impossible, so if you wish to learn it is best to be open to all possibilities in life. That way you learn the most.
Much like your beliefs filter out the possibility of you being a miserable, self-deluded person parroting mindless rubbish because he’s afraid of death and wants more than anything for their to be a meta-meaning to life.
I was under the impression that the columbus-big-ship-thing had been debunked. From: wiki article on this topic:
I can relate to that, I first heard the story about Magellan, so it has been circulating at lot. It does illustrate a truism about belief systems being filters of what can be seen and heard. Like the Kittens study. It is more subtle when it is about emotions. Dr. Wayne Dyer a psycholigist wrote a book called “When you believe it you will see it.” People that have convinced themselves that nothing exists but materialism would not be able to see anything else. I wish we had a better education system, one that would leave room for possibilities.
Some of the things I worry about are how someone like Richard Dawkins can convince others that spiritual events are non-existent when spiritual events have a history of thousands of years, and experiencers that number in the billions. I don’t know how well his crusade is going, but just looking around I don’t see any religions disappearing.
There is a new style of religion on rise today, lead by Josh Osteen, his church in Houston, holds 17.000 and is full, there are millions more watching on television. He is a positive preacher. This will grow along with spiritual knowledge and be a great asset to the world.
Flattery will get you nowhere. If I were as miserable as you say I think I would know it.
2 a : wretchedly inadequate or meager <a miserable hovel>
There’s more than one way to be miserable. It’s quite possible to be both pathetic, limited, and wrong, and to love it.
I wouldn’t know, I can’t read minds. I only offer my help to others when they ask for it. I don’t judge, or criticize them personally. But we do talk about attitudes and beliefs that are keeping them from being all they could be. Most people just pick on themselves, never satisfied with what they can accomplish. They down themselves on a daily basis with unreal expectations. If they are hard on others with their criticism and judgments then it’s a sure bet that they treat themselves the same way.
This is nothing but a blog with the impressions of a couple of Pam’s fans’ comments.
There is no scientific evidence reported in this piece, a point that has been pointed out to you on numerous previous occasions.
lekatt is under a direct order from the SDMB staff to avoid making any more passive-aggressive insults toward other posters.
You will do well to not engage in the same sort of behavior.
You can refute his actual claims or ignore him, but do not get into a pissing contest or loob insulting insinuations outside the BBQ Pit.
[ /Moderating ]
You will also refrain from this sort of comment.
[ /Moderating ]
It is hard for me to believe you said that the surgeon and other doctors were only Pan’s fans. And there was no science in this experimental surgery. But it does point out the mind set of this blog.
Have a nice day Tomm.
I believe you have filtered out my question: what are the 30 universities you claim are currently studying “the near death experience”?
I’ve heard this story before, and I’ve always been amazed at how monumentally dumb it is. If people could not physically perceive things they had no experience with, how would anything new ever be invented? Ten years ago I’d never seen an iPod. By your logic, when I wanted to buy one, I’d have needed to hire a shaman to lead me on a vision quest until I was familiar enough with an iPod to perceive one.
Hell, this story doesn’t even make good internal sense. It’s not like native Americans were unfamiliar with the concept of a “boat.” The Europeans had bigger, more complicated boats, but I find it hard to believe that an Indian would look out on the water, where a large wooden object with people on it was floating, and find the experience so totally alien that he’d just see a big, empty bay. More likely, he thought, “Holy shit, that is one gigantic fucking canoe.” If we accept your story at face value, one has to wonder how many Europeans plunged unknowingly to their deaths in the Grand Canyon, because nothing in their experience in Europe had prepared them for the concept of a hole that big?
Meh, I just get tired of him making factually incorrect statements about meanings of words. The examples I was thinking about when I wrote that a person could be perfectly happy while living a lie were all friends and family of mine, not him. (And they do love and enjoy their beliefs - they certainly ain’t feigning it.)
I am also wondering which 30 universities you are referring to. Are they accredited?
I hadn’t forgot I was compiling the list when I was told by the mod all the research and studies I have posted were no good and I am not to post any more. This effectively takes me out of the debate. Sorry.
Now, THAT is disingenuousness of the highest order.
If you have actual studies (for a change) you are more than welcome to post them.
However, a survey, while useful as a point of exploration, is not a scientific study and some doctor accepting the word of a patient’s beliefs without doing anything to verify those beliefs against reality is not a scientific study. So if all you have are more credulous anecdotes, we can resume the discussion without further interruptions. If you are going to pretend that blogs and personal beliefs are rigorous science, then don’t bother wasting other posters’ time or the board’s storage capacity.
Millions of people also believed the earth was flat. The more that is learned about the human brain the more we understand it. A person who fasts a lot can cause the chemistry of the brain to act in a different way. There are many physical explainations as well. The truth ‘is’ surfacing that is why a lot of illinesses that were once thought to be demonic possession is now better understood. If one wants to believe an event is supernatural he will continue to look for an explaination that will go with his thinking. One could also say an experience was brought about by Satan(as some do) because the Bible says" Satan disguises himself as an angel of light,to lead away even the elect". Depends on one’s beliefs. If one believes strong enough they do not want to know the truth.
I do not fault you for your beliefs,they seem to help you. But belief is not proof, one way or the other.