Religious experiences, truth and opinions

[Nature_s_Call]

@lekatt

Consider the near death experience in the light of your post. Here people from all religions and no religions get the same guidance in their experiences. They don’t necessarily see the same thing or receive the same words, but the message is clear even in the less positive NDEs. It is the message of love.

The near death experience (NDE) phenomenon, while not taking away anything from how it affected those involved, has been well explained as a form of lucid dreaming induced by the trauma that brought the participant “near death.” It can be reproduced at will in other ways. For example, 70% of those pilots (and others) who underwent acceleration testing in that centrifuge device reported exactly the same body disassociation, light at the end of the tunnel, meeting dead relatives, etc, as those reporting NDEs.

What distinguishes these religious experiences from NDEs is 1) no trauma 2) no loss of consciousness during most if not all of the experience and 3) different details (no tunnel, for example).

Again, I mean no disrespect for those who have experienced NDEs and maintain there’s something more to it. I suspect though that, like NDEs, there is a more prosaic explanation for religious ecstacy than God’s involvment.

[Nature_s_Call]

@Psilocybe

I think a valid question to ask is whether the religious experience is comparable to the states brought about via psychedelics.

I will attest that my first magic mushroom experience - 3.5 dried grams alone in the dark - was the most religious/spiritual experience of my life. I could write a book about what did or did-not happen that night, but I’ll save it unless anyone is intrigued.

I certainly am intrigued - please do tell. It’s something I’ve wondered about myself (suspicious of hypothamus produced drugs).

I’ve sampled weed once or twice and enjoyed being silly afterwards - but nothing like what a buddy described when some asshole slipped something in his drink at a party - LSD? mushroom? His experience was nothing pleasant at all - he described his walk home facing melting street lamps and all the parked cars laughing menacingly at him.

[Nature_s_Call]

Damn it! In reviewing the last few of my posts, it may appear I’m letting my preconceptions close my supposedly open mind. My intention in pushing back on the spiritual explanations is to see how deep they go, how well they hold up. Yes, I started this thread with preconceptions, but I am looking for the truth. I didn’t invite opinions just so I can smack’em down, honest.

[Psilocybe]

@Nature's Call

I certainly am intrigued - please do tell. It’s something I’ve wondered about myself (suspicious of hypothamus produced drugs).

I think the “hypothamus produced drug” you’re looking for is called DMT, but it is actually said to be produced in the pineal gland. It is the most powerful hallucinogen known to man with a chemical structure close to psilocybin. The experience is comparable.

Mushrooms…man…where do I start. They contain the chemical psilocybin which is active at around 20mg. They have been used for thousands of years all around the world, mostly in South America where statues and pictures of their Gods can often be seen holding mushrooms. Their word for mushrooms is Teonanacatl - “Fruit of the Gods”. Mushrooms are an extreme safe substance, physically. The active dose required for death is around a pound, roughly a hundred-plus times the usual dose. They are non-addictive as well.

Do not believe anything you have seen on TV or heard from anyone else about mushrooms, even me. Do not allow the fact that its merely illegal to influence your opinion. What I’m talking about is without a doubt, above the “law”. Language utterly falls apart when trying to describe this stuff - like describing colors to blind man. Its something that must just be experienced. It’s frustrating because I really do want to accurately portray the experience to you guys, but I know its impossible.

All my trips have been by myself, and I have had 3 Mushroom experiences, 2 of which were intensely spiritual. They were not my first psychedelics and I had read a lot about set and setting, what to expect, etc beforehand. While in a good mood, I eat the mushrooms plain and wait anxiously for them to come on. Around 30 minutes a pleasant body buzz (kind of like an orgasm but your whole body) emerges and the very mushroomy “trippy” feeling begins to develop. Slowly, if I pay attention, I can see that my vision is beginning to move around and breathe. The carpet flows as if it were a liquid. Auras begin to appear, usually a green color, and shadows can be seen moving as if to an invisible moving light.

The mental effects have already begun as well. One’s first reaction is usually one of fear and apprehension. This is the ego talking. It is scared because it can feel the oncoming experience and its emanate destruction. Some people might become afraid they are dying. This is completely normal and is once again the byproduct of a decreasing ego.

Concepts begin dropping one by one. Your old beliefs about pretty much everything are slowly wiped out. As the effects intensify, you lose the notion of who you are completely. The concept of time is ludicrous and it seems to be running in loops. You have entered the “moment of infinity”. You begin to feel that this is how everything really is. This is how it really is, all along, and your brain has been tricking you. You have had the blinders on all along. This is how it was before you were born, and this is how it will be when you die. “You” feel intensely connected to everything and the whole stimulus of the universe as a whole is pervading your skull. It feels like you are learning a “secret”; the secret of the universe. I realize I must sound funny saying that, but it’s absolutely true and cannot be denied.

Your ego is gone. Ego loss. There is no “you”. This is very cosmic and insane. I often feel very much like the madhatter. You are “delusional”. I pretty much just go with the flow at this point and just think. Its definitely interesting being connected to absolutely all reaches of the universe. Not to mention, it also makes “you” feel like “you” have been born and lived infinitely times in the past. Infinity, death, the cosmos, and mother earth are all common topics of the mushroom experience. Sometimes aliens or other beings make their way in there too.

The visual effects at this point a very strong, and audio effects are present as well. Despite popular media, seeing goblins chasing you with a knife is not an effect of mushrooms, you never see hallucinations that vivid. I’m very uninhibited at this point, perhaps moreso than being drunk. I often play with my body as if it were something new - stick my fingers in my mouth, explore my hair. “You” do what “you” do and theres no reason not to. Your eyes will be very dialated and you will yawn a lot and be sleepy. The experience is very “dreamy” as a whole.

As the effects begin to decline after about 2-2.5 hours of laying on the ground doing nothing, the ego begins to reemerge. The first thing it wonders is, “What was I doing?”. The answer is of course, “Nothing” and the ego finds this very strange.

When was the last time you did nothing, besides sleep? Our egos keep us busy all the time. The next thought I usually have is “Whoa, you were so delusional. You paid money for that?” This is my ego trying to convince me that trip was nothing special. I might feel embarrassed or ashamed or “dirty” for even going without my ego for a while. It is not happy.

I can easily get over those feelings, sit there, and reflect on what I just lived through. This is probably the most important part of the trip for development because you can begin to integrate what you experienced into your everyday life. It is amazingly liberating and joyous and happy. I feel happy to be alive.

Psychedelic indeed means - “mind-revealing”.

For further information visit Erowid.org. Or you can read about the “Good Friday Experiment” in which Tim Leary gave some theology students psilocybin in a church during a controlled experiment. They all had religious experiences.

[lekatt]

@Nature's Call

The near death experience (NDE) phenomenon, while not taking away anything from how it affected those involved, has been well explained as a form of lucid dreaming induced by the trauma that brought the participant “near death.” It can be reproduced at will in other ways. For example, 70% of those pilots (and others) who underwent acceleration testing in that centrifuge device reported exactly the same body disassociation, light at the end of the tunnel, meeting dead relatives, etc, as those reporting NDEs.

What distinguishes these religious experiences from NDEs is 1) no trauma 2) no loss of consciousness during most if not all of the experience and 3) different details (no tunnel, for example).

Again, I mean no disrespect for those who have experienced NDEs and maintain there’s something more to it. I suspect though that, like NDEs, there is a more prosaic explanation for religious ecstacy than God’s involvment.

I thought you really wanted to examine spiritual experiences. But you dismiss the most profound of all spiritual experiences as dreaming.

I will post some things you may want to look at before you make up your mind:

On NDEs, there exists good scientific evidence that consciousness lives beyond the death of the body. Controlled studies show this. the Pam Reynolds surgery is a bench mark case of evidence of life after death. It has been the subject of books, magazine articles and TV documentaries. It is not that the evidence doesn’t exist it is the denial of scientists that makes it appear not to exist.
But this is changing, more research is being done and more researchers are believing.

All serious researchers of NDEs, I mean those that read the NDE materials, interview the experiencers, and write about their studies in a scientific manner, come to respect the individuals who have them. Most become believers.

The reason they become believers is the profound personally changes NDEers go through after their experiences. These personality changes are dramatic and long-term, like the rest of their lives. Many go back to school and become teachers or counselors, some write books, give lectures, even build centers of service to others. Some volunteer at hospitals and hospices. Nearly all begin some kind of service to their fellow man. They have lost their desire to become rich and/or famous. The world is forever seen in a different way. The reason for this is the knowledge gained from the experience. We experience the “ghost in the machine” and know the reality of a higher intelligence. Now the experience doesn’t change them, they change themselves after “seeing the light” and want to get in step with reality.

This part of the near death experience is what makes believers out of skeptics.

There is nothing in the form of delusions, illusions, drugs, dissociation, or any other means known that has the ability to cause people to change so.

http://www.newsnet5.com/station/2893543/detail.html

The above is research done the the University of Arizona.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1693

The above is research done by Dr. Pim Van Lommel and his team at Hospital Rijnstate in the Netherlands
http://www.ntdaily.com/vnews/displa...1/41f0a79e73d4c

Quotes from the above research.

“Consciousness may be more than just a product of brain activity, according to Dr. Jan Holden, a professor in NT’s department of Counseling Development and Higher Education. Holden is involved with a study on near death experiences at the University of Virginia”

“Changes in values and attitudes and the most uniform change that is virtually unanimous among near death experiencers is the complete loss of fear of death. NDEers say that there is no such thing as death of consciousness.” she said. “Paradoxical changes happen in that state of consciousness.”
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm...09&id=999952003

The research above is about psychic ability.
I could go on posting many more links of research being done by real scientists, but I won’t. If you want to know truth you will read and learn what is happening in the world of science regarding near death experiences and related subjects.

If after reading this material you still believe NDEs are dreams, then I can safely say that for you there are no spiritual experiences, but for the thousands who have experienced NDEs God is very real.

[II_Gyan_II]

@Nature's Call

Still, it’s a pretty big stretch to say God reached down to profoundly impart unto me how to do a jig.

Which misses the point. The jig is what others saw you doing, and what you found out afterwards. The meaning is not in the jig, it is in the firsthand experience during.

I still think if it studies show/explain what is happening in the brain to cause such experiences, then there is less of a need to reach for God or spirit to give them meaning.

To which I reiterate my second paragraph in my earlier post.

@Psilocybe

IIt is the most powerful hallucinogen known to man with a chemical structure close to psilocybin. The experience is comparable.

Comparable? Hardly.

Language utterly falls apart when trying to describe this stuff - like describing colors to blind man.

Indeed. The rigorous way to put it, is that we lack a vocabulary of the shared conceptual or semantic primitives with which to describe these experiences. The anti-drug establishment needs to show they’re on top on things and assemble a description based on some superficial characteristics and deign that as the final authoritative word.

One note though. Ego death is not a common experience. Some people are predisposed to it, or so it appears.

Or you can read about the “Good Friday Experiment” in which Tim Leary gave some theology students psilocybin in a church during a controlled experiment. They all had religious experiences.

That was Walter Pahnke, not Leary. Here’s a critique of the experiment.

There is nothing in the form of delusions, illusions, drugs, dissociation, or any other means known that has the ability to cause people to change so.

This is patently false. People have been genuinely and significantly transformed by psychedelics and similar experiences. I suspect your belief derives from a traditional Western interpretation of (Cartesian) dualism.

[Nature_s_Call]

@lekatt

I thought you really wanted to examine spiritual experiences. But you dismiss the most profound of all spiritual experiences as dreaming.

I will post some things you may want to look at before you make up your mind:

Please understand, when I called NDEs a form of lucid dreaming, this does not dismiss the experience. I have no doubt most if not all reports of NDE are true experiences. It is unfair to suggest that by considering non-spiritual explanations of their cause I am somehow not seeking the truth. I intend to look at each of your links with as objectively as I can - just as much as when I read about centrifuge or drug induced experiences.

It has been the subject of books, magazine articles and TV documentaries.

This is a good measure of how interesting a topic is. But the fact that a topic is the subject of books and TV shows is not, in itself, a compelling reason to believe one thing or another.

The reason they become believers is the profound personally changes NDEers go through after their experiences. These personality changes are dramatic and long-term, like the rest of their lives.

This is something that bears a closer look. There are at least two ways of looking at this. Imagine someone was walking down the street and saw a flash of sustained light that defied explanation. That event, in and of itself, has no meaning. If the person, for whatever reason, believed that flash was a sign from God, it would well change their life. If I believed God directly touched me, it would change my life - indeed as it did when I first spoke in tongues.

If, though, as II Gyan II mentions, there was something in the experience itself that revealed something the person involved didn’t already know - that’s compelling! I look forward to reading your links - and this is one of the things I’ll be looking for.

There is nothing in the form of delusions, illusions, drugs, dissociation, or any other means known that has the ability to cause people to change so.

I have to disagree with you on this. History seems rife with examples of life changing delusions, ritual religious drug use, and other altered-state experiences that have changed lives. (I have no cites, sorry, I’m relying on judicial notice).

If after reading this material you still believe NDEs are dreams, then I can safely say that for you there are no spiritual experiences, but for the thousands who have experienced NDEs God is very real.

Not so fast! I am presently convinced that NDEs are non-spiritual in explanation (still very real, very powerful, and very meaningful for the participants). If I can hop into a centrifuge and have a 70% chance of experiencing something indistinguishable from an NDE, what does God have to do with it? However, that by itself does not mean that there are no other spiritual experiences (although it is a strong indicator other as yet explained experienes will also have a similar explanation).

[lekatt]

Nature’s Call

You had your mind made up when you started this thread, so why ask?

The Pam Reynolds surgery is proof that consciousness con…

Forget it.

[Nature_s_Call]

@II Gyan II

Which misses the point. The jig is what others saw you doing, and what you found out afterwards. The meaning is not in the jig, it is in the firsthand experience during.

I agree, of course, but I don’t follow where you suggest we go from there.

To which I reiterate my second paragraph in my earlier post.

Thanks for pointing me back to that second paragraph. There were some subtleties I missed. You have a very compact, terse writing style - your short paragraphs have much more to them than I first grokked.

Comparable? Hardly.

While agreeing that words inadequately convey the entirety of the experiences, Psilocybe’s description sounds eerily similar to my experience after that movie. On the face it does seem comparable.
Gyan, you have successfully challenged my preconception that there must be a non-spiritual explanation - mainly with your observation that just cuz it’s observed biochemically in the brain doesn’t necessarily mean biochemistry is the source. I remain skeptical, but you’ve slapped my thinking cap on a bit tighter.

Can you elaborate more on your point about the significance of the epiphanic episode being anomolous or revelatory. Are you saying if it’s the former, then explanations safely stop at brain juice, and if it’s the latter God’s on the hook?

[Nature_s_Call]

@lekatt

Nature’s Call

You had your mind made up when you started this thread, so why ask?

The Pam Reynolds surgery is proof that consciousness con…

Forget it.

Don’t be like that! First of all, I made it clear in my OP where I stood on the explanations. Secondly, I didn’t read that centrifuge article until you brought up NDEs - honest. Your post prompted me to look where previously I had not.

Thirdly, I have not yet had a chance to read for myself the details of the Pam Reynolds case, nor the other links you provided. I swear I intend to do so.

I don’t know you personally, so what I am about to type is not a personal attack: But when I see a debater respond this way at the first sign of opposition, it leaves me with the impression that their preconceptions allow no debate.

Having said that, I encourage you to continue in this discussion. Just know you’re not preaching to the choir, and I may have questions that challenge your stance, and I may not believe your conclusions - but I am trying my best to be open-minded.

To this end, do you have an alternate explanation to the centrifuge findings? I only gave the report I cited a cursory read. Some of the questions I want to answer myself are:
[ul]
[li]Were the authors of the report being dishonest? Do they have anything to gain by invalidating NDE’s spiritual explanations?[/li][li]Were the experiences indeed the same as NDEers? Can the experiences be distinguished?[/li][li]If NDEs are indeed spiritually based, is the centrifuge is another way to access the spiritual (the movie Flatliners comes to mind)?[/li][/ul]

What’s your take?

[II_Gyan_II]

@Nature's Call

While agreeing that words inadequately convey the entirety of the experiences, Psilocybe’s description sounds eerily similar to my experience after that movie. On the face it does seem comparable.

Psilocybe implied that the experiences of DMT and Psilocybin were comparable. Only in a general sense that they can both be intense psychedelics, but the profiles of the experience have some significant differences.

Gyan, you have successfully challenged my preconception that there must be a non-spiritual explanation - mainly with your observation that just cuz it’s observed biochemically in the brain doesn’t necessarily mean biochemistry is the source.

My point is, that just by pairing two domains, they don’t explain the other, i.e. observing that NDEs are accompanied by certain temporal lobe activity, just codifies a structure or pattern, without proving anything by way of causality. Maybe the temporal lobe works like it does because of the experience, rather than the other way around. David Hume covered this.

Can you elaborate more on your point about the significance of the epiphanic episode being anomolous or revelatory. Are you saying if it’s the former, then explanations safely stop at brain juice, and if it’s the latter God’s on the hook?

Either the experience is anamolous, which means you experienced something that doesn’t fit in nicely with your conception of reality. In which case, its meaning is derived from being a crack in the edifice. A revelatory experience is one where meaning is derived from insights that reconstitute the coherence of one’s reality. An anamolous experience may be (attempted to be) retrofitted within the existing framework, whereas a revelatory experience won’t be, because the new framework inherently undermines the validity of the old one. If you have a convincing experience where a voice tells you that it is controlling your brain, demonstrating (consistent, even) brain activity can’t disprove that. The only potential of conflict is if the voice tells you something like that it will rain tomorrow. Here the revelation doesn’t have primacy, your observations do. You wait till tomorrow and see if it rains. But beliefs about the basis of observations can’t be disproven by observation. The beliefs underlie, not lay atop.

[mojave66]

I don’t know… saying “spritual experiences are located in the brain” is like saying “the color red is located in the brain.” Of course it is, there’s no way I can tell you what “red” means to me. Words like “hot” “bright” and the like are far too vague, and don’t capture the subtleties of color. In other words, spirituality is such an incredibly subjective experience that it can’t be quantified (granted, red can, in the EM spectrum, but not the experience of red). FWIW, that’s *not *an argument for or against God, just against the argument that this is all made up by your brain.

OK, on to my own story. I’ve talked a bit about this here on SD, but I’m not such a regular poster that you’ve probably encountered it. Here’s the whole story.

In 2003 I became pretty close friends with a nearby college student, about 20 years my junior. She was as much of a geek as I was about a lot of things, and she’d pick my brain about mathematics, and I’d pick hers about cognitive science (coincidentally). We’d also have long email conversations about everything from gender theory to cooking.

Unfortunately, this turned into a major attraction for the both of us. This was a huge problem since I’d been with my partner for 12 years, whom I still very much loved. It got worse, and we ended up being so touchy-huggy we got to the point that we decided to not have any contact with each other for three months. In the meantime, in a badly-timed burst of honesty, I let my partner know what was going on.

The next three months were horrible for me, my partner was very hurt and argumentative, yet refused to see a counselor with me. My best friend was going through a divorce of her own, so we really couldn’t be there for each other very well. In the meantime I slid into a suicidal depression that put me on Effexor.

Before this gets much longer, I’ll just say that the moratorium didn’t help one bit. By the time it was over I was very much in love with her. Add to this that at the same time my partner’s brother developed terminal cancer, we lost a cat to liver failure suddenly, I flunked two classes under the pressure, my partner lost her job, I developed a nasty case of herpes zoster. It literally took a suicide threat to get my partner into counseling with me, and then I found out that newly-divorced best friend and young would-be lover had hooked up.

So I’m fucking miserable. I’m wracked with guilt for hurting my partner along with anger at her for driving the to the brink before she’d work with me in therapy, wracked with hurt around the best friend and the youngster and confused about THAT because they were both free & single; there was absolutely no reason to hold it against them. I felt like a horrible spouse since all this was going on while my BIL died, and I felt like a horrible student because I had to put off graduation for yet another year.

So one night I’m reading the Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS), the Sikh holy book. I’d bookmarked several Sikh sites after Balbir Singh’s murder in Phoenix right after 9/11 to educate myself. I spent a lot of sleepless nights cruising the internet for distraction.

No kidding-- I started reading the SGGS, and after several pages I was sobbing. The first few pages are basically the founder of the religion’s (Guru Nanak’s) description of God. I felt the huge weight of the guilt and pain leave my body, and felt this incredible love, this incredible forgiveness. Why then and not while reading “sequential thread titles” I’ll never know, but I’m personally convinced that somehow God had gotten to me, and helped me out of the most hellish spot in my life. Ever since I’ve considered myself a Sikh & a Unitarian Universalist, since the latter is pretty close to the former in creed. Sikhs believe that all spiritual paths (even non-God ones) are equally valid, and that God exists in everything. From redwoods to dog dung. Seriously. The equal paths are pretty much why you never hear about Sikhs until someone in a turban gets murdered; they don’t believe in converting anyone.

So there you are. I’m convinced, and yeah, it’s way too subjective a topic to ever say “and you’re wrong.” And oh yeah, as much as I’ve loved mushrooms, it really was better than mushrooms. Plus I didn’t get nauseated afterwards.

[II_Gyan_II]

@mojave66

I felt the huge weight of the guilt and pain leave my body, and felt this incredible love, this incredible forgiveness.

This is going to come off as rude, but the above is precisely what keeps me agnostic. It’s impossible to ascertain whether your reaction was triggered by the immense pressure (of guilt) to set things right, or a genuine epiphany.

Sikhs believe that all spiritual paths (even non-God ones) are equally valid, and that God exists in everything. From redwoods to dog dung. Seriously.

This is, practically speaking, pantheism. I’m a Hindu, by birth, and I’ve studied and considered other Indian religions, notably Buddhism, and all of them tend to posit the same description of God(I wouldn’t pay much heed to English translations or Western descriptions). The principal difference lies in the prescription i.e. what to do with, and in, one’s life.

So there you are. I’m convinced, and yeah, it’s way too subjective a topic to ever say “and you’re wrong.”

Subjectivity doesn’t have much to do with it. Rather the nature of the topic.

And oh yeah, as much as I’ve loved mushrooms, it really was better than mushrooms. Plus I didn’t get nauseated afterwards.

The thing with psychedelics is that they trigger a cascade. Set, setting & psyche i.e. context is critical. Some people find them mild (like me) whereas others are full of praise.

[mojave66]

@II Gyan II

This is going to come off as rude, but the above is precisely what keeps me agnostic. It’s impossible to ascertain whether your reaction was triggered by the immense pressure (of guilt) to set things right, or a genuine epiphany.

No offense taken. It IS impossible to ascertain, but I stand by what I consider a completely subjective experience. That there is my definition of spirituality, the subjective experience of being and becoming.

@II Gyan II

This is, practically speaking, pantheism. I’m a Hindu, by birth, and I’ve studied and considered other Indian religions, notably Buddhism, and all of them tend to posit the same description of God…

Well, I didn’t want to get into the nuts and bolts of Sikhi philosophy, but there is the Mool Mantar, the basis of Sikhism: “Ik Oankar (ONE unitary God), Sat Nam (Named Truth) Karta Purakh (Is the Creator) Nirbhau (Fears nothing) Nirvar (hates nothing) Akal Murat (is timeless and formless) Ajooni Sabhang (beyond birth and death)…” So Sikhi is grounded in a very clear monotheism. I tend to think of that interconnectedness-- keeping in mind that I am a gori and a mathematician, so my metaphors come from that-- as a continuity that connects and includes the discreteness of creation.

And yeah, I know I’m missing a lot by not knowing Punjabi outside of what I’ve learned from gurbani. That’s going to take some time to learn.

[Zoe]

Interesting reading here, both refreshing and frustrating.

Since these experiences are truly impossible to describe, we do the best we can. It doesn’t behoove any of us to get into a “My enlightening experience is greater than yours” debate.

I do have religious beliefs, but my experience broadened my acceptance of other points of view. It could have been purely biochemical, just as all of my other perceptions of reality are, and that wouldn’t bother me at all.

Sometime in the early 1980’s, I was alone, listening to music outside. I had the sudden sensation that my body and mind were expanding and knew no bounds. I was everything and everything was me. I was filled with euphoria. Colors very very intense and seemed to be bathed in a rose-gold light.

I thought about things in my life and they seemed very inconsequential, but a little dear – just like toys from my childhood. It made me feel a little foolish that these things that had been important moments before weren’t worth a second thought. I knew they really didn’t matter at all. It was such a relief!

I seemed to become an eye in the sky looking at “the all.” I knew that I could close that eye and cease to be and that would be quite desireable and good.

After ten or fifteen minutes (?), I felt a human hand on my arm. Someone was checking on me to see why I was crying. I didn’t know that I was. He said later that I had the most serene look on my face despite the tears.

That experience changed my views on death, life after death, and heaven. I had never before imagined anything like that.

Psilocybe: You have entered the “moment of infinity”. You begin to feel that this is how everything really is. This is how it really is, all along, and your brain has been tricking you. You have had the blinders on all along. This is how it was before you were born, and this is how it will be when you die. “You” feel intensely connected to everything and the whole stimulus of the universe as a whole is pervading your skull. It feels like you are learning a “secret”; the secret of the universe. I realize I must sound funny saying that, but it’s absolutely true and cannot be denied.

That is as close to what I brought away from the experience as anything I’ve seen described. I keep hoping that someday science will make inroads to see what these perceptions and sensations are about. I can’t help but wonder what “senses” we don’t yet have access to.

[II_Gyan_II]

@mojave66

So Sikhi is grounded in a very clear monotheism.

Pantheism is not polytheism.

[lekatt]

@Zoe

Interesting reading here, both refreshing and frustrating.

Since these experiences are truly impossible to describe, we do the best we can. It doesn’t behoove any of us to get into a “My enlightening experience is greater than yours” debate.

I do have religious beliefs, but my experience broadened my acceptance of other points of view. It could have been purely biochemical, just as all of my other perceptions of reality are, and that wouldn’t bother me at all.

Sometime in the early 1980’s, I was alone, listening to music outside. I had the sudden sensation that my body and mind were expanding and knew no bounds. I was everything and everything was me. I was filled with euphoria. Colors very very intense and seemed to be bathed in a rose-gold light.

I thought about things in my life and they seemed very inconsequential, but a little dear – just like toys from my childhood. It made me feel a little foolish that these things that had been important moments before weren’t worth a second thought. I knew they really didn’t matter at all. It was such a relief!

I seemed to become an eye in the sky looking at “the all.” I knew that I could close that eye and cease to be and that would be quite desireable and good.

After ten or fifteen minutes (?), I felt a human hand on my arm. Someone was checking on me to see why I was crying. I didn’t know that I was. He said later that I had the most serene look on my face despite the tears.

That experience changed my views on death, life after death, and heaven. I had never before imagined anything like that.

That is as close to what I brought away from the experience as anything I’ve seen described. I keep hoping that someday science will make inroads to see what these perceptions and sensations are about. I can’t help but wonder what “senses” we don’t yet have access to.

Hi Zoe

You are a fortunate person. The experience you described is nearly always a part of near death experiences. It has been described in many ways. After researching NDEs for over 18 years and experiencing one myself I know it is truly spiritual. A connection between you and the Oneness of all things. This Oneness is often described in NDEs as God. It can happen to anyone at anytime, but usually happens when one is peaceful and quite. It’s life changing abilities are clear, no one is ever the same after this experience. If we could cause this experience to happen, we could turn the planet into a utopia in just a few years. There have been claims that drugs can cause this experience, but on a closer look these attempts just don’t come close.

Near death experiences have many more parts to them, but the Oneness experience is the most vividly remembered.

There is a book called “Cosmic Consciousness” by Bucke, written in 1905 you can still buy it from Amazon today. It describes when different people uptained their expanded consciousness and how it affected them. This is not a new phenomenon.

Now I will show a pair of links to these experiences. These are not NDEs but are like the experience you had, I think it is always helpful to know you are now alone.

http://www.aleroy.com/board238.htm

http://www.aleroy.com/board240.htm

The last one is by a skeptic, very interesting, he remains skeptic about some things, but not others. I am honest in posting experiences, I post what I get, no editing, but I do correct spelling.

[II_Gyan_II]

@lekatt

There have been claims that drugs can cause this experience, but on a closer look these attempts just don’t come close.

Cite?

[lekatt]

@II Gyan II

Cite?

You can read the research I provided earlier for starters.

But, the most obvious is the one I already stated.

Drug experiences do not change personalities forever, true they may feel better for a while, but soon they are ready for another dose of the drug. Their experiences are not clear and logical like Oneness experiences are.
They do not feel the expanded consciousness. etc, etc.

[II_Gyan_II]

@lekatt

Drug experiences do not change personalities forever, true they may feel better for a while, but soon they are ready for another dose of the drug. Their experiences are not clear and logical like Oneness experiences are.
They do not feel the expanded consciousness. etc, etc.

This is patently false and I can attest to this firsthand. You are just too wedded to an antiquated Cartesian dualism.