He said the first comment about atheists not being citizens in Aug 1987; the lawsuit was not filed, I believe, until late 1988, so the lawsuit is not an excuse–or even a “reason”–for his statements. Arrrrrrrgh! Is it your mission on this board to be the eternal apologetic for those who display predjudice or attempt infringement of minorities’ rights, because “they doesn’t know any better” or “it’s no big deal”?
Gaudere:
You’re right. George Bush doesn’t like atheism. Neither he nor his campaign clearly gave a rat’s ass about atheist issues. They stated clearly that they think American Atheists is a bullshit organization.
With respect to atheists, and recognizing their right to believe what they will, I have no problem with any of this.
I suspect that the issue has been around before the lawsuit, and George was no longer willing to play the game.
Yes, he was tired of the “game” of respect for the patriotism and citizenship of atheists. :rolleyes:
I guess they figured they weren’t going to vote Republican anyway.
I think he was getting tired of being harassed into paying obeissance to special interests.
I wonder if we have any other corroboration, not from Rob Sherman.
Hmmm. Not denying that atheists can be considered citizens = paying obeissance to special interests.
Good point Scylla.
:rolleyes:
Corrobation of what? As to the “atheists shouldn’t be considerd citizens”, as I mentioned they sent a letter to him regarding exactly that when he was in the White House, and the Counsel to the President said the President substansively stood behind his statements. You really, really, really want some way to make his statement OK, don’t you?
Oh please. Dude, be reasonable. He said this. It is well documented. How about just fucking admitting it instead of looking for friggin’ loopholes, m’kay?
:rolleyes:
Yer pal,
Satan
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Gaudere:
Yes, I do. I admire the man. He is certainly entitled to his opinions, and I support his right to have them, but I am surprised by that one, and disapointed.
I am wondering if there is any independant corroboration of these incidents, and looking.
So, you are saying that Robert I. Sherman made up the exchange published in the Boulder Daily Camera and “Free Inquiry”, and The Cousel to the President never really wrote back on February 21st 1989 to AA confirming that he said it, despite the fact that there is not a whisper of evidence leading one to believe that Bush has anything but contempt for atheists or that he retracted or disclaimed his statements. Your stance on “Why Bush Is A Great Guy” appears to have gone from “he didn’t understand!” to “everyone thought that!” to “he just misspoke!” to “he was pissed off about the lawsuits!” to “well, the atheists must have done something to piss him off before the lawsuits!” to “why should he care about atheists, anyhow?” to “see, he doesn’t pander to special interests!” to “aw, I bet he never said it anyhow.” Sheesh, man.
[Edited by Gaudere on 10-12-2000 at 02:19 PM]
I checked the net, and found the quotes and conversations reproduced several times. They are part of a brochure put out by American Atheists Veterans. There is mention of another quote where Sherman asked Ed Derwinski what he should do to get the Bush administration to take an interest in the problem of discrimination against American Atheist Veterans. Ed Reportedly said “What you should do for me is what you should do for everybody: Believe in God. Get off our backs.”
Ed also reportedly said that the Bush administration would do “absolutely nothing” concerning Atheist Veteran discrimination.
The whole brochure is here:
http://www.skeptictank.org/gbush.htm
skeptictank makes no comment as to whether it actually happened.
Mr. Sherman is an atheist acivist, and radio personality.
I have been unable to find any independant corroboration of this event other than Mr. Sherman’s word. This is surprising since it supposedly took place while Bush was in a public airport and other members of the press were present.
I am somewhat suspicious of Mr. Sherman’s ability to get such candid remarks out of Derwinski on more than one occasion without additional press backlash.
Bush has neither confirmed nor denied that he has said these remarks, but correspondence obtained by Mr. Sherman states that Mr. Bush does not favor atheism, and does not believe that the government should act to encourage or discourage it.
Apparently transcripts of the conversation were sent to every major newspaper, but only one person wrote an article.
I’m not sure whether to ascribe an anti-atheist conspiracy to this, or if it simply means that Mr. Sherman was not taken at face value.
I would be interested in further corroboration of this event independant of Mr. Sherman, or other examples of Bush’s atheisic bigotry.
I need more than this guy’s say-so, though.
Gaudere:
Yes, I do like Bush, and I’m trying very hard to give him every possible benefit of the doubt, and think up every possible reason or context that would ameliorate the exchange if it in fact occured.
I think that’s reasonable and fair.
If after all that there seems no alternative but to beleive that Mr. Bush is deliberately and unrepentantly bigoted against those who do not beleive in God, then I will have to rethink my opinion.
I would hope for the same treatment.
I was unable to find a transcript of Mr. Sherman’s Larry King interview, or a copy of Mr. Thiede’s article online.
Um, I have stated several times that the letter was sent to Bush asking for a retraction of the exact statements about atheists not being citizens, and the Counsel to the President said that Bush substantively stood behind his statements. Reading your link, Sherman detailed Bush’s statements on Larry King Live, which is not exactly low-profile. I have seen absolutely no evidence anywhere that Bush has retracted his statements or even said anything sympathetic in the slightest regarding atheists. Records of his statement are fairly well-known, and AA and various atheists have asked for an apology for years without any evidence of an apology, retraction, or disclaiming from Bush. There is a degree of well-documented evidence that he did say that, and so far none against it. Show me some evidence that Bush is sympathetic towards atheism or ever denied his statement, or that Sherman has fabricated things before, and you might have a leg to stand on.
Curiously, you apparently even believed he said it at first, and made various excuses for his behavior. One your excuses were dismissed as invalid, you repeatedly insisted he was misquoted or perhaps he never really said it, despite having no evidence of this and despite the fact that you admitted and defended his anti-atheist sentiment previously. I, personally, think Bush is bigoted against atheists. I agree he is a product of his culture, but that has never been adequate excuse for bigotry before. It does not particularly surprise me, either; our Democratic VP canidate endorses the belief that morality cannot be maintained without religion!
American Atheists’ President Jon Murray, son of Madalyn Murray O’Hair, demanded an apology from President George Bush for remarks he allegedly made at a news conference during the presidential campaign. Murray claims that Bush said he didn’t know if “atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”
– from the Associated Press, in the St. Paul Pioneer Press Dispatch, saturday, 21 january 1989 3B
“I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots,” Bush said during an August 27, 1988 press conference, according to an American Atheists spokesman. …
The White House has yet to admit or deny Bush’s statement despite calls for clarification by several newspaper reporters. White House Counsel C. Boyden Gray responded vaguely two months later, stating that Bush “is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government.”
– from the Minnesota Daily, tuesday, 2 may 1989 p 14
Gaudere:
I make no apology for wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt here. The rigorous proof should exist the other way around though, to prove that he is bigoted.
The statment that Atheists shouldn’t be considered citizens is DAMN strong.
In the actual letters, no reference is made to that statement whatsoever. Bush’s position as a man of God and not a supporter of Atheism is clear in the letters, but that is a very different thing from saying that Atheists shouldn’t be considered citizens.
So far we only have one source that said it happened as stated. That is Mr. Sherman. Do we have another reporter who heard the same thing, or is it on camera? A President is a pretty well-documented guy, so I’m not sure if it’s an unreasonable question.
Mr. Sherman is currently suing his son’s school for allowing the Boy Scouts (a religious organization) to meet there. He is suing his son’s school for treatment his son allegedly received for refusing to say the “Pledge of allegiance.” He is involved in the ten commoandments thing in the other thread.
Mr. Sherman’s credentials as an impartial newsman, may under these circumstances be questionable without in any way impugning Mr. Sherman himself.
So, is there another source for the Atheists shouldn’t be considered citizens quote other than Mr. Sherman?
Do we have another example of Mr. Bush directly opining against the civil rights of atheists?
Clearly he is not in favor of atheism, but that does not necessarily imply bigotry.
I would hope that you would agree that one needs to be pretty rigorous about these things.
Gaudere quoted:
"American Atheists’ President Jon Murray, son of Madalyn Murray O’Hair, demanded an apology from President George Bush for remarks he allegedly made at a news conference during the presidential campaign. Murray claims that Bush said he didn’t know if “atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”
– from the Associated Press, in the St. Paul Pioneer Press Dispatch, saturday, 21 january 1989 3B "
It seems pretty clear that Mr. Murray is quoting the incident as reported by Sherman. Again, Mr. Murray and Sherman are connected through American Atheists.
The second quote is also a rehash rather an independant corroboration.
I’m skeptical of such incendiary comments being made by a President at a news conference during an election year, and not being independantly corroborated.
Doubly so, in light of the “Bullshit” comments attributed to a campaign manager.
Would a campaign manager actually say that?
Who else heard it?
It also occurs to me that if Mr. Bush denies publically stating the citizenship quote than that bears directly to Mr. Sherman’s press credentials. Mr. Sherman could then sue for slander. Considering his litigous proclivities that is not an unreasonable assumption.
As an activist Mr. Sherman would have a lot to gain by a public lawsuit concerning atheist rights against the then current President, and the attendant publicity, win or lose.
The smart thing to do is give the guy the cold shoulder. Which, it seems they did, and which may explain Mr. Bush’s reticence to clear up the issue.