::sigh:: Bush could sue the reporter for slander if the reporter attributes quotes to him he did not say. It is only slander if you say something that is untrue. I fail to see why, if someone says you said something that you did not, you simply wouldn’t say “no, I didn’t say that.” Hell, all he has to say is “I believe atheists can be just as much of citizens as theists,” in response to the AA’s letter–or at any point in his career–and leave it at that if he so chose; that would prevent the appearance that he is directly accusing Sherman of misquoting him. Instead, when questioned about his statements in a letter, his counsel says he substansively stands behind his previous statements. Will you please find something that either supports Bush’s sympathy or at least neutrality towards atheism or impinges Sherman’s and Theide’s honesty, rather than speculating randomly without evidence? So far you’ve argued Bush didn’t really say it, he said it but he misspoke, he didn’t really mean it, he meant it but it’s OK… It is rather tiring when you don’t provide much support besides, “well, Sherman’s an outspoken atheist and he sues about constitutional infringement!” and “I don’t believe Bush’d say that.” You believed he said it every other post in this thread! You yourself gave good reasons as to why he would make a statement displaying predjudice against atheists. I find it doubtful that you now think it is so unreasonable. The quotes were picked up by the AP and the Minnesota Daily, so it’s not so low-profile that Bush would simply never notice that “misquote” was being attributed to him; the Bush campaign seemed well aware of it. If someone misquotes you slanderously, I can’t really think of a good reason not to correct them, or at least make some sort of a statement at some point that shows you don’t believe what has been falsely attributed to you.
Actually, I’m surprised Bush Sr.'s statements weren’t given more publicity by his own staff. These statements would probably have garnered him more religious voters than they would have lost by alienating non-religious voters. Wasn’t it FDR who told his speech writers to “throw some of that God stuff in there”?
A reporter’s notes are admissable as evidence in a court of law. The penalties for misattributing a quote are quite high. It is not something that is done lightly.
George Bush does not support atheism. To go to the effort of denying the quote is to give it credence, and to risk a legal battle that can only give support and publicity to an effort that he does not endorse. To come forth and make an ameliorating statement on behalf of atheism is to give in and give this the guy the publicity he wants.
I’ve checked out some of the websites of this guy’s actions and quite frankly I am disgusted. His “son’s” website poertaining to the lawsuit against the school for the pledge of allegiance is laughable. I sincerely doubt it is authored by his son, and the simple fact that he would his progeny in this way is reprehensible in my eyes.
During a Veteran’s March in Texas atheist veterans wanted to March with a sign displaying their atheism. They were refused under the grounds that this March was specifically about Veteran’s rights, and the issue shouldn’t be clouded. They were invited to March as Veterans, not as atheists. They refused. They neglected to mention this fact in their full page ad in the newspaper, decrying prejudice against atheist veterans, and against Bush again for the comments. They attempted to usurp a veteran’s March to get publicity for their issue, and at they very least they lied by ommision. Mr. Sherman was prevalent in this issue.
The case against the school concerning the BSA is equally general Bullshit. The brief is available online, and it seems clear that the school has in fact been available for youth activities both secular and nonsecular.
If this guy told me the sky was blue I wouldn’t beleive him.
None of this matters, because the burden of proof is on you.
Clearly this guy has an axe to grind. I find it very reasonable not to impeach the reputation of an honorable man on the say-so of this guy.
His brochure is little better than a chick tract, and his methods quite similar to PETA in more than one instance. He’s a publicity hound.
Do you really expect me to accept that Mr. Bush is a bigot on one man’s word, especially this man?
This stuff is THIN.
Find me ONE case of independant corroboration, or a seperate incident of bigoted behavior on this issue and I’ll give it credence.
Barring that, I think you’ll have to admit that the indictment of GWB is unfair.
If I was Bush I wouldn’t dignify this guy with a response either.
Yes, you were quite correct. I have changed my mind. When you listed the quotation I assumed that it was in fact credible and well-documented based on my experiences with you.
It doesn’t seem that any more, and I suspect you got sucked in.
So he didn’t deny saying it because he didn’t say it?
What is this, 1984? We’re in reverse speak or something here?
C’mon, man! Remember what I said about my respect for you over in the thread about the 10 Commandments? Well, seeing this stuff really isn’t helping matters.
You’re getting your ass kicked again – and this time, I had nothing to do with it.
I appreciate what you said about the respect, and I reserve the right to get my ass kicked. I am here to learn, and when I’m wrong I admit it.
I think it is basic and reasonable that if you wish to indict someone as a bigot, particularly a public figure, you need to be very very sure of yourself.
I also think it’s reasonable to try to give the guy every break you can, specifically because he is in the public eye, and words can be misinterpreted, and unfortunate things can be said.
I have abandoned every argument that has been reasonably refuted here. Only at the last did I consider the idea that maybe it didn’t happen. As a skeptic, I’d ask that you look into it yourself and see if there is not more than a reasonable doubt that it did. I will certainly respect your opinion.
I have looked at this pretty hard today because I like Bush, and I don’t like seeing him denigrated. I’ve tried hard to be fair, but quite frankly I find the whole thing pretty fishy.
At a press conference only one person heard these clearly inflammatory and unconstitutional comments. There is no independant corroboration other that Mr. Sherman.
Mr. Sherman does not very well fulfill the role of an impartial witness or pressman.
It is not on tape, and this is the President at a press conference during election year.
Though the info was sent to “every” syndicated columnist in the country apparently only one gave it enough credence to write an article.
Mr. Sherman has gone to unusual and questionable lengths in the past to garner publicity for the issue of atheism.
I spoke to my brother who has been a reporter, and their are legal ramifications to denying a quote. Mr. Sherman has everything to gain by a legal battle, and during an election year Bush has everything to lose. Silence on this issue, even if Mr. Bush did not say the quote, is clearly in his best interests, both legally and politically. It would also be in his best interests to be silent simply not to give Mr. Sherman the publicity he so clearly desires.
Mr. Bush is clearly not an atheist and especially during an election year he makes an excellent target to garner publicity for the issue.
All of the information on this comes from one clearly biased source, a brochure.
We’re accusing someone of bigotry here. What is our standard of proof?
I’ve been checking on the net and in some newspaper archives for independant corroboration of the comments.
In the Chicago Tribune arvhives I found articles confirming Bush’s arrival in Chicago in 1988 as Mr. Sherman suggests (he came because of flooding.) None of these articles mention Mr. Bush’s atheist remark.
The New York Times mentions his visit, but nothing on the remarks.
I really can’t believe no other news source mentions the remarks.
So, it is therefore less likely that Sherman–an accredited reporter–would do so, right?
Well, I don’t support fundamentalism. But if someone went around telling people I said fundamentalists couldn’t be citizens, I’d correct them. All it would do is make the fundamentalist who stated that lose face, and perhaps smear the whole organization. Sheesh, Bush could have made Sherman look like a fool.
And if it was gay veterans who wished to march with a sign and were refused? I’ve heard the “it’s not about you!” argument made about gay irishmen who wanted to march in a St. Pat’s parade. Certainly then the gays should quietly and humbly allow the parade to keep them out of sight. An atheist veteran’s rights are less than those of regular veteran’s (unless things have changed without my notice), so I’d think a march about veteran’s rights is defintitely “about them”. How did they lie by ommission, anyhow? Can you provide links?
What are the ramifications, and why could Bush not say he did not make that statement, or at least say that he considered atheists to be equal citizens? We do have lawyers on this board; I would trust their evaluation if they say it is wiser to allow a reporter to slander and misquote you rather than correct them.
I thought the case was because they wouldn’t let the kid in BSA since he was an atheist and wouldn’t swear to do his duty by God, nor would they let the father be a scoutmaster. Can you link to the case?
Sherman says he said it. AA wrote Bush and Bush said he stood by his statements. Bush has never denied saying it, though hundreds of atheists have demanded an apology or a retraction, nor has he ever displayed any sympathy towards atheism. So we have evidence he did say it, no retraction or denial, and he is known to have feelings leaning that way. ::shrug::
He has also said, “It is my firm belief that no one can be president without a belief in God, without understanding the power of prayer, without faith.” How far would he get by saying he firmly believed no one can be president without believing in Jesus, without understanding Christ’s sacrifice, without the grace of Jesus? Wouldn’t he appear bigoted against Jews or other religions? This is from a transcript of a Billy Graham speech.
No, I quoted two articles regarding it and there is evidence of another article and a statement on Larry King Live. It’s not like the brochure is the only evidence there is of Sherman saying he said that, and there is not the tiniest shred of evidence that Bush has ever retracted it despite an uproar among various atheist organizations who would certainly trumpet such a victory, and if you believe AA his letter said he stood by his statements.
You are accusing Robert Sherman, an accredited reporter, of having made quotes up out of whole cloth to support his agenda. You are accusing American Atheists of lying when they say they sent a letter regarding those quotes, and recieved a reponse standing behind those statements. All this with no evidence besides you like Bush and have decided you don’t like Sherman. I’m not 100% on the evidence, but it is solid enough that I tend to believe it is true until further evidence. I do not damn him utterly as a bigot–I do accept he is a product of his culture and upbringing–but I don’t excuse him because of it. My attitude towards him, assuming it is true, is more rueful resignation than anything else. Show me some evidence! Show me a quote where Bush or his campaign mangers show sympathy towards atheism and I will reconsider how solid I consider the evidence! Show me a claim that Sherman has fabricated quotes!
Arguing with you is like playing whack-a-mole. So far you have claimed:
-Bush said it, but it’s OK because he didn’t understand what atheists are.
-Bush said it, but it’s OK because everyone was bigoted against atheists then.
-Bush said it, but the cold war was scary so he has a lot of baggage. [additional strange analogy comparing atheists with Evil people]
-Bush said it, but it’s OK since people from his time think atheists eat Christian babies (paraphrased)
-Wait a second–maybe Bush was just misquoted! (He said he stood by his statements in a letter)
-Maybe the “bullshit” remark wasn’t the offical statement of the Bush campaign! (they said it was)
-Hee hee! I like it when that guy called it bullshit. I like him.
-Bush was probably just pissed about the lawsuit. (the lawsuit was filed after the statement)
-Well, then the atheists must have done something else to piss him off!
-You’re right. George doesn’t like Atheism. They said AA was bullshit.
-George was tired of playing the game of respecting Atheists, that’s why he said those comments.
-George won’t get the atheist vote anyway, so why should he show any respect for atheism?
-Allowing that atheists might be citizens is bowing to special interests.
-Wait, I changed my mind, I bet he didn’t say it after all.
-Maybe Sherman made it up! (Bush’s counsel replied in a letter to AA and said he substansively supported his statements)
-Maybe Sherman made it up! (Bush’s counsel replied in a letter to AA and said he substansively supported his statements)
-Maybe Sherman made it up! (Bush’s counsel replied in a letter to AA and said he substansively supported his statements)
-There’s no mention of it anyplace else! (two article cites, mention of Larry King Live and Tom Thiede article)
-Sherman’s a militant atheist. I bet he made it up.
-Bush won’t correct any misquotes because that supports the people who are misquoting him.
-Bush would get sued if he corrected a reporter who misquoted him!
-The proper thing for a politician to do is ignore slanderous misquotes that piss off a lot of people.
-Reporters are in big trouble if they misquote! A reporter’s notes are accredited in a court of law! (This is supposed to support your position, somehow)
-Sherman’s a jerk. I bet he’s using his son. I wouldn’t believe him if he said the sky is blue.
-Sherman’s was somehow involved in a group of atheist veterans who wanted to march with a sign in a parade. Bad Sherman! (no cite)
-Sherman’s case against the BSA was bullshit. (no cite)
You will forgive me if I think you are trying maybe a bit too hard to find some excuse for Bush. Hey, fine, disbelieve it if you like–no real skin off my nose. I don’t have an ironclad case, but I have enough to believe if it was regarding anyone else; I don’t believe I’m holding Bush’s quotes to a higher standard of evidence than I generally do in my daily life. If I run across a quote cited by multiple moderately-high-profile sources and can find not one source even whispering that it might be fabricated or untrue or that it was denied and the remarks do not seem wildly uncharacteristic, I tend to believe it until further evidence shows up. Hell, I do a lot less when I look up most quotes, I usually just C&P them from whenever I find them without looking around at all. Show me some solid evidence that Sherman has fabricated quotes before, or that Bush claims he never said anything like that, or that Bush shows some genuine sympathy towards atheism and I will reconsider my position–I hate being duped as much as you. But right now you seem to be swinging a bit wildly.
I am of course guilty as charged. I as much as said at the outset that I was trying very hard to come up with what excuses I could for Bush. I appreciate the polite nature of your posts, and the delicacy and ladylike fashion with which you inflict your ass-kickings.
I have e-mailed a polite request to American Atheists for more information concerning the events in question. I have specifically asked if any other reporters heard or commented on Bush’s comment, and I have also requested the full text of the letters written on White House stationery where Bush “Substantively” stands behind his comments.
I have also snail mailed George Bush himself a request for more info on this topic.
I am still disturbed that Mr. Sherman was the only one who picked up these comments despite the fact that it was at a press conference. I remember when old Danforth misspelled potato and it was all over TV. I find it difficult to beleive Bush could say this at a press conference and get away with it without a general bludgeoning by the entire press corps.
Can I have a cite for your statement? “His “son’s” website poertaining to the lawsuit against the school for the pledge of allegiance is laughable.”
Ok, so unless you can find the BSA link that you said showed his suit was “bullshit”, I think I’m going to go with my original statement that Sherman’s son got kicked out of BSA since he wouldn’t swear a pledge to God. A statement which is reinforced by one of the links you posted, BTW.
http://www.robsherman.com establishes that yes, he is an atheist and he doesn’t like school prayer before games. Neither do I. It doesn’t really support that Sherman fabricates quotes.
Your link citing problems with original source materials says, “[a]lmost without fail, when one investigates the origins of this crap, one finds that the allegation comes from a “source” who isn’t identified, or can’t be identified, because they are super-dooper top secret and all.” We have the source: Sherman, an accredited reporter, somewhat high-profile. We have confirmation from AA. You found that Bush was indeed at that place at that time. I did find another remark by Bush that could be interpreted as bigoted against atheists. It does not surprise anyone to think he might be, really; you gave many reasons that you thought solid as to why he would be bigoted against atheists. The fact that throughout this you seem willing to grab at anything–regardless of actual support for your position–to make Bush look good makes me somewhat suspicious of the slurs you fling at Sherman. Maybe he’s not the greatest guy, but he is an accredited reporter, and you have yet to provide evidence supporting Bush or showing that Sherman fabricates quotes.
I look forward to hearing what you get back from Bush and AA.
Let me also sincerely apologize for any assholish tendencies I may have shown here.
George Bush stands for everything that’s right in the world. The idea that he may actually be a bigot is basically inconceivable to me. I’m still in denial. When someone such as myself is struck so deep to the core he flails about wildly in his agony.
That said, the needing faith to be President quote that is undeniably attributed to Bush bothers me a lot.
It makes the whether he said the citizenship thing or not pretty much moot. I mean it’s basically the same thing.
“Inconceivable”? Now you sound like the guy in The Princess Bride. I’d buy that your experience of Bush’s character leads you to insist he would never say such a thing much more readily if you hadn’t immediately accepted it as true and given several reasons as to why he would say such a thing. We’ve gone from “those statements were perfectly reasonable, given who he is” to “those statements were so utterly unreasonable, given who he is, that I refuse to believe he said them.”
Sherman may very well be a putz. I have yet to see evidence that he is a Bush-quote-fabricating putz, though.
If those statements were perfectly reasonable, than Bush wouldn’t be a bigot.
I saw no cause to doubt your quote, I mean, you posted it, and you wouldn’t do that to me, would you?
No. So far I’ve found a whole bunch of stuff that fills me with distaste on Sherman. So far I have found nothing to justify calling him a liar though.
For my next trick I will attempt to argue that the fact that it has so far been impossible to catch Sherman in a direct lie clearly proves that he is an exceptional liar, thereby exonerating Bush.
I will refind those sights though. I swear I was looking at them yesterday.
And the fact that George Bush Sr. used to be head of the CIA – and agency whose very business is in hiding things – and had some apparent involvement in both the Iran-Contra affair and the little-publicized “Iraq-Gate”, doesn’t do much to convince me that Bush can do no wrong, either.
I got a form letter from George Bush yesterday thanking me for my interest. I also got a two page biography, and a signed black and white photo of the ex-President.
There is no mention of the American Atheists or Rob Sherman in the Bio. I’m not sure that I can interpret this as a denial though.
I still haven’t heard anything from AA. Maybe I should E-mail them again.
Show me some solid evidence that Sherman has fabricated quotes before, or that Bush claims he never said anything like that, or that Bush shows some genuine sympathy towards atheism and I will reconsider my position–I hate being duped as much as you. But right now you seem to be swinging a bit wildly.