Among all priests, nuns, rabbis, imams, gurus, monks, etc., what percentage truly believe in God; question the existence of God; don’t believe?
Wow, now that’s a question and a half Harry. I suspect that there is no factual answer, only guesses so expect this to be moved to IMHO or GD.
Belief is part of their job description, so I go with 100%.
Just an opinion though. Oh and, Hello Harry.
I’d say that this is a good way to help decide if something is a cult or a religion. If the leader of the “religion” doesn’t believe what he/she preaches, chances are that it’s a cult.
Well, I’m sure that almost everyone that enters Religious Service believes when they enter. How many have become disillisioned later on is the debate
Belief is not really part of the job description of a rabbi. A rabbi is a teacher who usually has studied Jewish laws and traditions. Rabbis can perform a variety of functions, including leading worship services, teaching, counseling, and aiding in dispute resolution, but they are not required to have any extraordinary level of faith. This is in keeping with the tenets of Judaism, which generally places much less importance on faith than Christianity does.
Although it’s reasonable to assume that someone who devotes his life to the study of Judaism shares the central beliefs of the faith, including belief in God, faith is not a requirement for a rabbi, and there is nothing wrong with a rabbi questioning and examining his beliefs.
It’s probably important to make the distinction between faith and doctrinal orthodoxy too. Often a clergyperson may come to question some element of the doctrines traditionally espoused by his faith, while retaining belief in God or the equivalent.
I once met a rabbi (reform) who admitted freely that he had no belief in God and I rather doubt he ever did. When I asked him why he went into it, the answer was along the lines of acting as a counselor.
Easy job.
No or little responsibility.
Talk a good game.
Keep the congregation happy.
Good pay. 
Wow. That is quite a question and one that will, probably, not ever be answered adequately.
I think MOST religious leaders, etc. DO believe in God.
I’ve always wondered how many religious leaders and/or founders were truly inspired, how many were charlatans, and how many were suffering from some kind of mental disease/condition that caused delusions.
For example, there is a guy, down in Arizona somewhere, who claims he is the second coming of Jesus Christ. Is he crazy? A charlatan? The real thing?
Or how about Paul, from the Bible? He never met Jesus, but claimed Jesus contacted him, after death, and then proceeded to hijack the entire Jesus movement, from the original disciples.
Or ?? Miller, who claimed the second coming would take place in 1888? When it didn’t happen, he managed to save his reputation and as a result the Jehovah Witnesses developed.
Or John Knox? He was a woman-hater, who was attracted to young girls, even married a very young girl. He was not above preaching assassination of royal persons either. He was too cowardly to perform the act himself, but urged others to try.
Were these men sincere? Crazy? Charlatans? Who knows.
Nefertiti, you’ve confused two people. William Miller predicted the second coming in 1843. The Seventh Day Adventists resulted from his predictions. Charles Russell predicted the second coming in 1914. The Jehovah’s Witnesses resulted from his predictions. I don’t know of anyone who predicted the second coming in 1888.
Joe Random writes:
> I’d say that this is a good way to help decide if something is a
> cult or a religion. If the leader of the “religion” doesn’t believe
> what he/she preaches, chances are that it’s a cult.
I would guess that the exact opposite is more likely true. The leader of a “cult” (or to describe it more objectively, a new religion with highly passionate leaders and followers, often distrusted by the general populace for their excessive enthusiasm) is more likely to believe sincerely in what he’s preaching, since he’s going out on a limb just by being in the cult. A leader in an older, more established religion, on the other hand, has a greater chance of being in that position because he just happened to fall into the job without having to make a big decision to put himself out on a limb.
You seem to think that excessive enthusiasm means that a person must not be really sincere. On the contrary, it more likely means that they are sincere. Of course, one’s sincerity of belief doesn’t prove or disprove the truth of the beliefs.
IIRC, Leo Rosten’s Religions of America had an almanac as part of it, to include the attitudes/beliefs towards deity of religious leaders.
Thanks for the correction.
I was trying to research who founded the JW religion and ran across this interesting court record: (I don’t know how to make a link so am pasting the address. Sorry.)
http://www.geocities.com/paulblizard/russ1.html
It would appear that Mr. Russell certainly like young ladies.
There are certainly clergy who do not have faith in their religion.
Some lack it from the start. Some lose it but remain in their post.
There are also numerous instances of clergy who lost faith in the tenets of their church, but converted to another. When I was in my twenties, the Catholic church I attended had a priest on staff who was a professor at a local university. He was married and had children; this was permissable as he had been an ordained minister who already had a family when he converted to Catholicism. One Sunday he was talking about the responsibilities of parents, and he said something like: “every parent knows that you don’t always know the right thing to do in raising a child, and sometimes you have to just take the best guess you can”. I was astounded; every Catholic priest I had ever met had insisted that raising children was easy–and that he was somehow an expert at it despite a total lack of experience.
I found the information above about rabbis very, very interesting.
Marjoe Gortner has frankly stated that he never believed in God as a child, or while he was a minister.
The Spanish philosopher Unamuno wrote a sort novel on the theme called St. Emmanuel the Good, Martyr. It is the memoir of a woman who worked for many years as the housekeeper of a rural priest famous for his good works and his inspirational effect on people. She reveals that he confessed to her that he was an athiest, but continued in his office because he believed he was a help to people who felt a need to believe in God.
At the end she argues that he really believed in God even though he went through life telling himself he didn’t. What she meant by this is subject to interpretation and argument, (in fact, it was the subject of an essay assignment about thirty years ago when I was an undergraduate) but I think that she was addressing an important point: that “belief” is, at times an equivocal term, and it is sometimes difficult to say how strongly or truly we do or don’t have faith in something.
There is a play called Catholics which has a similar theme. I believe it may have been adapted from a novel. It was a Playhouse 90 production back in the 70s, and starred Martin Sheen and Trevor Howard. Set in the future, it concerns an American priest (Sheen) who visits monks in a remote part of Ireland. While there, he discloses a secret to the head of the monastery (Howard); The Vatican is about to reverse itself on a central tenet of the faith to facilitate a merger with another religious body. He expects the monk to be aghast, but Howard confesses that, try as he has for decades, he hasn’t believed in God for a long, long time.
There is also an amusing short chapter in Sinclair Lewis’ novel Elmer Gantry in which the title character, a successful minister who is an insincere huckster, meets with an elderly clergyman, a very sincere and decent man, who has served many years in the same denomination. The man listens patiently as Gantry talks about his faith and his ministry in glowing terms for a long stretch of time. Then he simply says: “Tell me young man, why is it you don’t believe in God?”
I’d have to disagree. I think cult leaders usually believe TOO strongly in what they preach, many times so strongly that they can’t entertain any opposing viewpoints.
(Please pardon my clumsy formatting)
FyreFiend
quote:
Wow, now that’s a question and a half Harry. I suspect that there is no factual answer, only guesses so expect this to be moved to IMHO or GD.
> H.H.:
> I wondered whether there might be some statistics
> somewhere.
Joe Random
quote:
I’d say that this is a good way to help decide if something is a cult or a religion. If the leader of the “religion” doesn’t believe what he/she preaches, chances are that it’s a cult.
> H.H.:
> Unless David Koresh or Jim Jones believed what he preached.
FyreFiend
quote:
Well, I’m sure that almost everyone that enters Religious Service believes when they enter. How many have become disillisioned later on is the debate
> H.H.:
> Right. I’m hoping someone will do the research.
SpoilerVirgin
quote:
Belief is not really part of the job description of a rabbi. A rabbi is a teacher who usually has studied Jewish laws and traditions. Rabbis can perform a variety of functions, including leading worship services, teaching, counseling, and aiding in dispute resolution, but they are not required to have any extraordinary level of faith. This is in keeping with the tenets of Judaism, which generally places much less importance on faith than Christianity does.
Although it’s reasonable to assume that someone who devotes his life to the study of Judaism shares the central beliefs of the faith, including belief in God, faith is not a requirement for a rabbi, and there is nothing wrong with a rabbi questioning and examining his beliefs.
> H.H.:
> Agreed. No judgement was intended.
Hari Seldon
quote:
I once met a rabbi (reform) who admitted freely that he had no belief in God and I rather doubt he ever did. When I asked him why he went into it, the answer was along the lines of acting as a counselor.
> H.H.:
> I’m assuming that those who are not in the first category
> (believers) but remain in their position, do so because it
> doesn’t necessarily impact their job function.
spingears
quote:
Easy job.
No or little responsibility.
Talk a good game.
Keep the congregation happy.
Good pay.
> H.H.:
> Possibly. The same could apply to the other two categories.
> And the opposite could apply to all categories.
Nefertiti
quote:
Wow. That is quite a question and one that will, probably, not ever be answered adequately.
I think MOST religious leaders, etc. DO believe in God.
I’ve always wondered how many religious leaders and/or founders were truly inspired, how many were charlatans, and how many were suffering from some kind of mental disease/condition that caused delusions….
> H.H.:
> Most replies seem to be equating a lack of belief with a lack of
> authenticity–that the person isn’t what he/she appears to be,
> which surprises me. I wasn’t thinking in that way. I was
> thinking that the only difference between the three categories
> was belief, not goodness of intention, not caring about
> souls, not respect for the bible or any other quality.
> I asked the question because, as an atheist with faith envy, I
> have conflicts, like trying to reconcile the negative and the
> positive things done in the name of faith, or, comparing what
> is logically unacceptable with what is emotionally crucial.
> It’s occurred to me that there probably are religious
> professionals that experience similar conflicts.
> I wonder how many are out there and how they cope.
> Slipster, you’ve given several good examples of what I’m
> talking about.
Haircut Harry, please don’t take this wrong, but you’re reversing the standard format in your quoting. This makes it hard to read your post. Generally one puts a > before each line that’s quoted from other people and puts nothing before one’s own statements. You’ve done it the other way around. You might also note that on the SDMB you can automatically quote using the quote button below a post.
I think that most religious people have occasional doubts about their faith. That includes most religious professionals. Most people whatever their religious beliefs or lack of religious beliefs find themselves occasionally questioning their core beliefs. That’s why people occasionally change their religion, even sometimes those who were leaders in their former faiths. Sometimes people drift away from their faith without really acknowledging the change, and sometimes those people are leaders in the faith.
I think Wendell is exactly right. I am writing my thesis on Graham Greene and the relationship of faith and doubt, and he has many doubting clergymen. I think that one of the illusions many people have is that faith and doubt are mutually exclusive, or that that more of one means less of the other.
I rather think that great faith requires a strong element of doubt. The opposite of faith is not doubt but indifference.
Among all priests, nuns, rabbis, imams, gurus, monks, etc., what percentage truly believe in God; question the existence of God; don’t believe?
About 50% of the clergy truly believe in God among liberal mainline denominations; at least this is the number that the authors of the Wayward Shepherds: Prejudice and the Protestant Clergy came up with for the clergy in California several decades ago. The Mind of the Bible-Believer quotes from them as well. From the latter book, I quote from on page 38, here is some of what they came up with when the clergy was able to speak candidly.
JZ