I don’t have any hard evidence, but I strongly suspect Jerry Falwell worships both God and Mammon, if not just Mammon.
I don’t think this question is factually answerable - a factual answer would require us to be able to judge the state of someone’s faith objectively, which is clearly not possible.
I will, though, add a little caveat to the study quoted by John Zahn, above: to many of us “liberal mainline” Christians, doubt - even serious doubt - is both an almost inescapable part of the human condition, and a necessary spur towards deeper belief. So, fifty per cent of clergy reporting “important doubts” does not equate to fifty per cent of the clergy being closet unbelievers. (In my opinion. But, since there’s no factual answer, my opinion’s as good as the next bloke’s … )
If the clergy answered factually, to the best to their ability, and with heavy emphasis also on honesty, then why couldn’t one take as face value some member of the clergy if he clearly states in private that he has serious doubts about the existence of God? What does he have to gain by stating such thoughts in private? OTOH, he would have plenty to gain, and lots at stake not to express these views on Sunday, unless churches have gotten as liberal as the Unitarian‘s. But have they?
**I will, though, add a little caveat to the study quoted by John Zahn, above: to many of us “liberal mainline” Christians, doubt - even serious doubt - is both an almost inescapable part of the human condition, and a necessary spur towards deeper belief. **
How does that work exactly? I would have thought a stronger faith would spur one towards deeper belief; not serious doubt. If an atheist has serious doubts about their atheism, it doesn’t spur one towards being a stronger atheist; they wouldn‘t even use that label. And if the clergy that answered they had serious doubts about the existence of God in private, shared these same sentiments in the pulpit the following Sunday, what would be the odds for them being invited back for the next Sunday services to preach more of the same? assuming they would be back at all.
JZ
For some people, a strong faith is the end of questioning, and therefore a static state. They believe, they know what they believe, end of story.
OTOH, someone who is constantly questioning and examining her beliefs will constantly be learning, developing new ways to understand and appreciate her faith, and thereby deepening her beliefs.
It’s like comparing the person who posts in GD solely to witness with the person who posts in GD to engage in a spirited debate about a topic. The first person (assuming he’s there only to express his own sure beliefs, and not to listen to other viewpoints), will leave GD with exactly the same depth of belief with which he arrived. The second person, even if his beliefs are not changed, may find that they have deepened through being examined and defended.
Harry,
I’ve served churches in two denominations over the last 20 years, and in that time I don’t recall any of my brother or sister clergy who have completely lost their faith. This isn’t to say that it doesn’t happen, but that it may not be all that common. On the other hand, quite a few of the associates I’ve known (including myself) have seen their faith change in some pretty significant ways over time. Occasionally I’ll come across a paper I wrote in seminary or as part of the ordination process and cringe.
One community that DID see quite a bit of loss of faith was the one I was a part of in seminary. Quite a few of my classmates found the unexamined presumptions of their faith questioned for the first time, and a few lost their faith as a result. Others kept their faith but came to the conclusion that professional church service really wasn’t their calling.
I have known a fair number of clergy who left church work (I did myself for a while). In my limited experience, though, this is more a reflection of their own sense of dissatisfaction in the work and not necessarily a reflection of loss of faith.
I suppose some stay out of habit or fear that they’re unqualified for anything else or for some sense of the perks of the job. Personally, it’s hard for me to imagine why someone would stay in this line of work if he or she didn’t believe – it would be a terrible strain to have to say things day after day that I didn’t think were true.
Spingears,
You wrote:
>Easy job.
>No or little responsibility.
>Talk a good game.
>Keep the congregation happy.
>Good pay.
I don’t know if you were referring only to the rabbi mentioned in your post or to all clergy in general, but I’ll respond anyway. It IS an easy job, and fun too, quite a bit of the time, but some times your point #1 and point #4 are mutually exclusive.
Talk a good game – only in the sense that a math teacher who says that 2+2=4 is talking a good game. I don’t think of it that way.
Good pay – I make a comfortable salary, but I’ve been in this line of work for 20 years and that makes me relatively marketable. Certainly there are televangelists out there with big diamond rings and huge cars, but that’s not a style of ministry that many aspire to and most of the clergy in my part of the country are paid very modestly when you consider the amount of education they’ve had. My wife has often observed that I could have spent the money and time it cost us for me to attend seminary and gone to law school instead. Actually, with the amount of time I’ve spent in continuing education, I could have been TWO lawyers by now.
No or little responsibility – You are mistaken on this one. I don’t know what your personal beliefs are (and they aren’t any of my business) but even if you are absolutely sure that God does not exist and all clergy are out there promoting an illusion, I still think you’d have to concede that the service we provide to the people who desire it is very meaningful indeed. As the only priest in my parish I’m NEVER off duty and when someone calls I answer. I sit by the beds of people who are dying, I meet people in the emergency room, I deal with people whose marriages are breaking up and whose children are on drugs, and I do not take any of those activities lightly.
CH
:smack: (Sorry about the formatting)
If, by faith, you mean biblical information, ethics, miracles, etc., it makes sense to me that people would occasionally have questions.
But, if by core beliefs, you are referring specifically to belief in God (or a supreme being), are you then suggesting that most people fall into the second category (agnostic)?
So, the greater the faith, the greater the doubt?
Depends on the congregation and the issues faced by the various members of that congregation. In my denomination (LDS), the Bishop (who leads the congregation) is assisted by both of his counsellors and the body of the priesthood in the congregation. The Bishop, just as all other members of the priesthood, does his church work in addition to his paying job. So, I’d say it’s not such an easy job.
I’d say the Bishop in my denomination, along with the ministers and pastors, rabbis, and mullahs of quite a few others, has quite a lot of responsibility. Here are just a few:
[ul][li]Ensure the teachings from the pulpit and in the various church classes is in line with the group’s understanding of its scriptures and other theological bases.[/li][li]Ethically deal with crises in the congregation as a whole.[/li][li]Ethically and confidentially assist individual members of the congregation with personal crises as necessary.[/li][li]Coordinate the various community activities, the various charitable activities, the various targeted ministries for both within and outside the congregations.[/li][li]Ensure those advancing within the congregation’s ecclesiastical organization are qualified for such progress.[/ul][/li]
I suppose by this you mean, “Preach in accordance with the Church’s understanding of the Scriptures.” Well, that’s pretty much a given for a lot of ministerial positions in quite a few denominations, isn’t it?
In my denomination, that’s pretty much required by two verses in our Scriptures:
[ul][li](2 Nephi 2:25) […] Men are, that they might have joy.[/li][li](Alma 41:10) […] Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.[/ul][/li]So, I guess it depends on your definition of happy.
Depends on the denomination. Our guys don’t get paid. I believe there are other groups who don’t pay their ministers either.
Haircut Harry writes:
> But, if by core beliefs, you are referring specifically to belief in
> God (or a supreme being), are you then suggesting that most
> people fall into the second category (agnostic)?
No, I’m saying that religious belief requires one to frequently think through one’s presuppositions. Thinking through one’s presuppositions doesn’t mean having to give them up at the drop of a hat. Examining one’s presuppositions is especially important for a member of the clergy. Such a person is frequently called upon to defend his faith. If they want something to say beyond, “Believe, and quit asking me questions,” they have to have a faith that they have thoroughly examined themselves.
Agreed. But how do you define core beliefs?
I didn’t consider the strain. I thought they would feel what you describe below:
That is the scenario I imagined when I posted the question: a percentage of clergy fulfilling their purpose regardless of changes in their belief in God.
I didn’t mean “core beliefs” in any technical sense. I meant things like belief in the existence of God, beliefs about how God operates in the world, beliefs about the interplay between free will and determinism in one’s actions, beliefs about how one recognizes revealed truths in religious documents, etc. In any case, to say, “I often think about how one proves the existence of God” does not mean that one is an agnostic.
If this is going to turn into a debate about the existence of God, I pass. I stay out of Great Debates for a good reason. I’m not interested in endlessly debating some issue that won’t get resolved and will get someone mad at me.
(I don’t think this is going to turn into anything, it seems to have run its course.)
Sorry, it wasn’t my intention to debate anything. I just wanted information regarding people’s belief in the existence of God.
Thanks for your participation.
Haircut: Don’t forget that there are some faith groups which are completely unconcerned with the existence or nonexistence of deity and yet they still have “religious professionals.”
Monty,
That’s next on my list. Thanks.
H.H.
No problem, Harry. Actually, I like the questions you’ve posed and the way you’ve posed them.
Sometimes people hear I’m a priest and then ask me what denomination. I tell them, “Latter-day Saint.” They then respond with, “Oh, I thought you meant a real priest.” GRRRRR! Some folks are just completely unaware that their brain is there for a purpose.