To the peril of my immortal soul, I found my mind wandering one day while listening to the sermon. I was thinking about ministers in general, and wondering just how many of them have their faith entirely intact. Obviously most do, or they’d quit. At the same time, it can’t be unknown for a minister to lose faith – and keep quiet about it. And it seems to me that there’s no inherent reason a quiet atheist couldn’t make an effective minister, or even a good and inspirational one. It might be enough to believe in religion in the abstract, or to simply like the job.
So, no harm, no foul, right? What do you think? (And anyone know any atheist clergy members?)
I’d say an atheist certainly could make an effective minister because such a belief as his relies on just as much faith [absent any fact] as he’d expect of his clergy. One could easily discuss belief in God, keeping love in one’s heart and how to live a righteous and upright life even if one is merely paying lip-service.
Well, there are reasons other than the sense of a good work well done, or the desire to serve the populace as a spiritual leader, that motivates some to stand at the pulpit.
Somewhere in the latter portions of the NT (I thought it were in Revelations but I can’t find it right now) I believe is the dire warning “You will see the beast standing in the one place he should not be”. Where else??
My nomination would be Jerry Falwell. If that $@#!@ smarmy manipulative self-aggrandizing self-appointed collection-plate-totin’, Bible-thumpin’, pontificating charlatan has ever since his 15th birthday believed anything he says about God, Jesus, right, wrong, or any other related topic, I would be astonished.
As for less cynically oriented spiritual leaders — those who perhaps come gradually to disbelieve in some things they once took on faith as real — I suspect there probably are some who actually conceptualize themselves as atheists but who continue to practice, but probably very very few. More likely, you have folks undergoing a “crisis of faith” and working their way through to new, more nuanced understandings of what “God” means which leave them comfortable doing what they’re doing and not feeling like they’re living a lie, etc.
A used car salesman could answer this question easily. You don’t have to personally believe in the product you’re selling in order to be convincing. All it takes is charisma, good speaking skills, and knowing your subject.
I’m an athiest. Though I couldn’t be a preacher since I lack the speaking skills, I could write awesome sermons. I went to a Christian school where we had to do things like that as creative writing excersises, and I also know the Bible very well. My husband has the speaking skills-- together, we could make a great preacher.
In fact, we probably could start a pretty good cult of our own.
It’s possible to believe in religion entirely on a metaphorical level as a useful way of organzing life. It’s possible to take comfort in the thought of heaven, base your life on obeying Jesus’s more popular rules (do unto others etc.) and enjoy the ritual, togetherness and peace of church without believing in any of it literally. Such a person would technically be an atheist- or at least agnostic- but would make a perfectly fine minister.
Actually a Danish priest maybe two years ago came out with the statement that he doesn’t believe in god. And he maintained that he wanted to keep his position (I believe this was with Denmark’s national church, which is IIRC Lutheran.)
Theologically - No.
According to what we Christians actually believe each person who has faith in Christ has the Holy Spirit at work in them, transforming their minds and their actions into one that is pleasing to God. The Holy Spirit also empowers them to do the work that God assigns to each in response to his gift of salvation. Atheists, since they don’t believe in Jesus don’t have God’s Spirit at work in their lives and are therefore unqualified for really any Christian work.
Practically - Also No.
Ministers do much more than just read out sermons. A minister sets the vision of the church and is there to train and lead the congregation in building the church. I don’t think that it is possible for an atheist minister to do his job without the congregation realising that he doesn’t actually believe he is saying. Some might be fooled, but you can’t fool all the people all the time, and it would soon get out.
Besides, the reasons that most atheists stay in the church is far from honourable. The truth is that:
Being a minister places you in a position of respect and honour in the church community
Many ministers don’t have a lot of other skills or qualifications that make them very employable outside the church.
Since ministers have a pretty vague job description it is a job where you don’t really have to do very much if you don’t want to, and you can still get paid for it.
It is very secure as unless you sleep with someone you shouldn’t or take money you shouldn’t a lot of churchs are very reluctant to outright fire you.
Given that I think that the major reason a lot of people that loose faith remain in leadership positions in the church is because of their own greed. They realise that they are on to a good thing and don’t have the courage of their convictions to give it up. Nearly every church makes their leaders promise (amoung other things) that they believe in some creed (Nicene, Apostles, 39 Articles, whatever) and that they will defend that belief. To then come out and admit that you don’t believe the foundational beliefs of the church (whatever they are) and that you will not give up your position of leadership within the church basically makes you a liar and a parasite on the wider church body. And as such I only really have comtempt for such people. If you don’t believe what the church advocates at least have the courage of your convictions and leave.
One of the reasons I am so contemptuous of such people is that they are essentially killing the church. If you look at which churchs are dropping in numbers it is the theologically “liberal” churches that are dying. It is the “evangelical” and “pentecostal” churches that are growing. And often the more liberal the church the faster it is dying. One of the (many) hypocracies of people like Bishop Spong is that while they continue to tell the church that it must “change or die” in truth it is Bishop Spong’s changed church that is dying, because few are convinced by his Godless Christianity. People can tell when the leaders of the church no longer believe in God.
Another reason that I am so contemptuous of “atheist” ministers is that I have actually been involved in a church where the minister essentially did not believe in God. The reason that he was still a minister was essentially the four points. Even though he did not publicise the fact, and indeed tried to continue as normal, the elders of the church could tell what was going on. He was just unable to properly lead the church without sharing it’s belief. In the end the elders confronted him, he refused to change or leave, and since the church was slowly dying under his “leadership” the elders to protect the congregation had to get the wider church body to forcibly remove him from his leading that church. This process caused a huge divide in the congregation, and ultimately hurt a lot of people. As a minister ultimatly he was a gigantic failure. Instead of building the church he effectivly tore it down.
“Some might be fooled, but you can’t fool all the people all the time, and it would soon get out.”
I tihnk there are too many examples of people living fake lives for very long periods for this to really be credible.
Look at televangelists and how long some of them managed to be successful for before they got caught - and even successful afterwards. Or paedophiles who were ‘pillars of the community’ and how staunchly they can be defended even with huge evidence against them. People generally want to believe their leader is sincere so this adds a huge barrier to any ‘unmasking’ - an atheist is really pretty small potatoes by comparison.
Id say it would be difficult and that many would be caught out, but not that it couldnt ever be done.
People who want to believe in him will believe, and many will continue to believe no matter what the evidence. You can’t “fool all the people all the time”, but some people you can fool all the time.
For once, I actually agree with you. Whatever else an atheistic minister might be, he’s a hypocrite - and that pretty much disqualifies him from a job that’s supposed to involve trustworthiness.
Again, I agree with you. I’ve often thought it would be fascinating if were possible to know how many religious leaders really believe what they are saying.
Or, it could be because religion is fundamentally backwards and intolerant, and trying to create a progressive church is like trying to use a screwdriver as a saw; it’s not the right tool for the job.
Depends on what you mean by effective. If it means building a big following and ensuring a healthy income, I’ll bet there are lots of them out there. Its like the successful salesman who isn’t really all that privately gushing about his product.
I’d say that it is very difficult, even more difficult than the examples that you give. If you are the minister of a church you lead not only by word, but also in the manner of your life. It is a job where there is no sense in which you are “off”. I guess you could fool some people all of the time, but it would take an extraordinary sense of commitment to the lie. I just think that most people don’t have it in them.
Wow, I wasn’t expecting that
/me checks outside to see if Satan is driving to work in a snow plow
I’d say the overwhelming majority, at least amoungst Christians. Your feelings on religion aside the histroy of Christianity is full of people making stands at personal cost for no other real reason than because they were convinced that they were right, and the truth mattered.
Of course. The most popular ministers are always the ones with the most charisma. I have sometimes felt that the majority of popular ministers aren’t even faithful - they just realize they could make a killing amongst the faithful with their charismatic skills.
Joel Osteen sounds more like a motivational speaker than a preacher to me. I would not be surprised at all to learn he’s just not that gung-ho about the whole “personal savior” business.
Instead, why don’t you search for one of the thousand other threads where we explain why this is bullshit. Save us all a lot of time.
As for the OP question, depends on what you mean by effective. I belive Marjoe Gortner, a very charismatic and superstar evangelical touring preacher, did a successful round of revival meetings, that was filmed, after losing his faith. Here is the first link I found, but there seem to be many.
It depends; if you take the view that there is no actual reality behind the claims made by the particular religion, then it could be argued that anyone could do the job if they were good at performing all of the tasks that the job entails. Maybe they could, maybe not. maybe the lack of underpinning faith (even though that faith, if it existed, may have been in vain) would be prejudicial to failure.
If you take the view that there is some kind of reality to the claims, then of course an athiest can’t do the job - if it requires, say actual ministry of intercessory prayer with an actual God, then someone merely pretending to do it is probably going to be worse than someone who simply doesn’t bother trying.
