As the final Chilean miners are brought to the surface, once again we hear a chorus of praise for “God” for delivering them. Not the devoted people and scientific equipment that got them out, but the invisible magic guy in the sky.
So, although I am certain that debates along these lines have been held 10 million times on SDMB, let’s make it 10,000,001.
My questions are:
1)If God is to be thanked for delivering them, is he not equally to be blamed for allowing them to get into that fix in the first place?
Why is it that when something good happens, theists are soooo certain they can discern God’s loving kindness in the event. But when something bad happens, it’s time for theists to roll their eyes, shrug their shoulders, and quote you some passage about how the ways of God are mysterious and we cannot understand his purposes. Funny, you seemed to understand his purposes pretty damn well when good stuff happens!
Because stealing the credit for accomplishments and giving it to their god is pretty much standard for believers, as is avoiding laying blame on their god. It’s not like they can point to any actual divine accomplishments after all.
God’s a self-loathing passive aggressive in a codependent relationship with the faithful. He trapped the miners so that people would beg for him to free them and hail him as an almighty and ever-merciful savior when he eventually capitulated.
But I agree, God did not save them. Just so we are clear, I believe in God. But here is my opinion on how it works: God gave us free will. If God interferes, no free will. Still… if you pray, ask for God to interfere, does that defeat the free will issue, since help was asked for? Maybe that is their belief? You know people who believe in God are not crazy or delusional. I have a good book here, but failing to find the quote I want. Anyway, a great thinker thought, and I am obviously paraphrasing, God can only be found through logic. Which is against the belief system of faith based religions. Which is an interesting way of looking at things. Do the math on the odds of an intelligent species inhabiting any planet. Not arguing intelligent design, but we are here, and God, at least for now, is the mortar holding up the brick wall.
Well, I supposed you could look at it a number of ways. First off, God planned the whole thing, including the rescue. So s/he/it should be thanked for sparing the miners. Possibly it was the prayers of the faithful that won through to God and changed his/her/its mind…or, perhaps it was part of a greater plan. Or, maybe the Devil caused the cave in for his own cloven hooved and obscure reasons, and God intervened to save the day.
Or, it could just be that ‘praise god’ is merely an expression of relief, an appeal to something in an otherwise cold and uncaring universe.
Because people put their own spin on events, and they want to think that there is some guiding purpose behind both the good and the bad, some higher reason for what would otherwise simply be a cosmic crapshoot. Sort of like why CT nutters want to believe in shadowy government agencies who were REALLY behind assassinations of popular presidents or large scale attacks on the US. It’s hard to grasp, for some, that profound acts can be carried off by just some lone nutter or some schlubs who got lucky…it’s more comforting to believe that, in fact, it was REALLY all due to the machinations of a shadowy group, or powerful cabal in the Government. Higher being, shadowy all powerful government agency, mutant space hamsters mutilating cattle and anally probing people for nefarious and probably dirty reasons…devils, demons, etc etc…it all stems from the same desire of humans to put some sort of order on chaotic or seemingly senseless acts.
Not belieivng in religion does not make you an athesist. Isn’t the word religion originally Greek for “of man”? Therefore God is not religious. Guess we’ll find out when we die.
Was going to say bad joke here, but I’m afraid I’ll be banned. Something to do with someone doing something and telling us what is on the other side. :smack:
I think all I can say to Valteron is “there there, there there.”
Some of them certainly are.
The probably of anything that has already happened happening is 1:1. That aside, I’m not sure life is all that improbable in an infinite universe. Some people theorize it’s basically a sure thing.
Are you saying that the miners being trapped in a mine was an evil event? Is the leukemia that some children have evil? Does that mean that those children have leukemia because they’re wicked? Wow, if babies can be wicked I’m fucked. Or do they have leukemia because other men are wicked? Wow, so innocent children are being punished for crimes committed by others?
This God guy is a real asshole.
But don’t worry, everyone, like a good husband, he’ll tell you that he loves you after he beats you.
Onto the probability thing: that is not what I mean. For life to exist an infinite (I am exaggerating) number of factors apply. Proximity to a star, tilt of the planet, pressure, gravity, water, geothermal activity, atmosphere, etc. We have those so naturally life can exist. Anyway this is futile deabte, if we had another planet equal to earth, then we could say one way or the other add these ingredients and you get life. La la la.
All people in being selfish and wicked in nature. Infants haven’t developed the capacity to commit wickedness but they carry the seeds of it in Original Sin. This wickedness has led (indirectly) to natural evils such as disease or earthquakes.
So kids with leukemia have it because they’ll one day be wicked. Why don’t I have leukemia? Sure I’m just as wicked as those little bastards (who obviously deserve God’s wrath) in the children’s hospitals, right?
This is garbage. Even in an imperfect world, kids don’t do anything to deserve disease and misery. If your story about Original Sin were true it’d be a case of horribly misplaced aggression.
I want you to think about that for a couple minutes and get back to me.
No, you won’t find out when you die. You’ll go through your life wrapped in the delusion that there is an afterlife and then you’ll die, your brain will turn off and you’ll be utterly and irretrievably ended.
At least that’s what a person who actually wants evidence behind his beliefs would say.
