I used to be opposed to reparations for slavery, but a black friend of mine said that if I supported it (wrote letters to my Congressman and Senators, etc.) he’d pay me 1/20 of whatever he got. So, naturally, now I feel that reparations are a really grand idea, and should amount to at least $50,000 for every black in America.
Trinopus (only half joking…)
Well, technically, our government was living under it’s own tenents since slavery was perfectly legal before the Emancipation Proclaimation and the 13th Amendment.
Why do we Yankees have to pay reparations? We fought a freakin war to free the slaves! Let the South pay for it. Half of them still refuse to celebrate Martin Luthar King Day. You gotta be some kind of racist to not take a day off from WORK.
Personally, I find it pretty funny (not funny=:D , funny =:rolleyes: ) that we had slaves in this country, not a thousand years ago, but only a few generations ago.
msmith, do you have a cite for that thing about half of southereners don’t want to celebrate MLK day?
Blacks in America today are still experiencing the fallout from slavery. The notion of racial inferiority became so ingrained in our culture that relations between blacks and whites still suffer from it. Hell, only a few decades ago, a black man could be tortured and killed with impunity should he dare whistle at a white woman.
Blacks also still suffer disadvantages that whites do not. Many are poor and trapped in a vicious cycle. Yes, we all hear about the success stories, but it takes a very determined person to overcome all of the obstacles in their way.
Not too long ago, I read about a survey which was taken of white college students. They were told this scenario (truncated for brevity: * You are informed that there a medical mistake was made, and as a result, at midnight tonight you will become African-American. The hospital is willing to compensate you. How much do you want? * The average aswer was $25 million. I thought it was interesting that these students thought that being black was such a disadvantage that it warranted such a huge settlement.
I don’t think anyone would argue that there aren’t social/economic disadvantages that come along with being black in America. However, I don’t think just writing a check will do much good. Firstly, the major hurdle that black Americans face is poverty and all of the educational disadvantages that accompanies it. There is not even a remote chance that any reparations would be enough to change that. Secondly, it won’t help with the other problem: racism. If anything, it may stir up anger and resentment.
I think that ** buttonjockey308 ** was right about education. I would happily support reparations which would be devoted to such positive projects-- things that actually would help break the vicious cycle of poverty and crime.
Interesting that you don’t like the idea of rationalizing slavery reparations by saying “well such and such a country didn’t do it”. Then you turn around and rationalize who should foot the bill by claiming that you had to foot the bill for the Japanese, so two wrongs do make a right in that case. Sheesh.
If someone had come up to me in college and asked me that question, I would have gone for the gold as well. Who cares that I’m black? You’re offering me free money, and lots of it.
–Patch, whose ancestors came here in 1964
BNS, I’m not quite sure what being whooshed is, but it is unlikely.
The causes I mentioned are important to the people who vote, ergo, important to the people who GET the votes, no matter the party. In my experience the liberal votes with his heart, and the conservative votes with his head, in my experience neither one is always correct, and more often than not, it is a combination the two that formulates the best decision.
No one, not a conservative, liberal, a democrat or republican want to see a child without education and food and a safe place to grow up, yet both parties have seen to it with thier endless bickering and infighting about who’s right and who’s wrong, that the people who truly need the help are left wanting, and the only ones gaining any ground are the politicians.
It’s clear that the cycle of victimization must be broken, it’s just that we’ve got the wrong people wielding the hammer.
What would you do about black immigrants to the US from the Caribbean and their descendants? Most of them are descended from slaves, but their ancestors’ owners were Europeans not Americans. Do they get a piece of the action? Should the UK, France, Spain, and the Netherlands ante into the pot?
Lissa…
But…
So? That’s the American ideal. Man controls destiny so man is responsible for anything that goes wrong.
…what does this have to do with the U.S.?
First, many whites are poor just as blacks are poor. BOTTOM LINE: If you are white and not a success you are a failure. If you are black and not a success you are a victim. Come on people is that really fair?
About the study of college students, asking college students how much they want is like asking a 5 year old how much candy she wants at a store. That study means absolutely nothing. In no way does it imply that whites “thought that being black was such a disadvantage that it warranted such a huge settlement.” If you asked the same college students how much money would be “owed” to them if they were somehow given moles all over their body they would probably give a ridiculous figure much the same as that one. Does this mean that they think having moles all over your body is such a disadvantage that it warrants 25 million bucks? I think not. People are money hungry. If they can make a quick buck off of somebody’s mistake many people will. :rolleyes: Do you have a cite for this study?
Why do they need reparations? Isn’t AA enough?
Lissa, all that means is that they want money.
I’d probably be, “Well, how much are you willing to give me?”
I don’t think it would be a disadvantage-I’d just want the money to pay off my student loans.
And that’s just it-I think a lot of this is about greed. (At least, some of the more radical ones are).
Oh, and by “radical ones”, I mean groups screaming about pain and suffering for whatever-it could be blacks, whites, Chinese, Irish, Chilean, etc.
**
Exactly what I said. I don’t think that mailing checks to millions of people will solve any problems. What would be the actual amount of money involved. Couple hundred bucks? (I honestly can’t imagine it could be more.) I can state for a fact that the three hundred dollar check I got from Bush’s tax cut a while back didn’t change my life one iota. Were I poor and struggling, it might have paid my rent for one month, but even for the poorest Americans reparation money would at best be a temporary relief of their overal financial condition.
However, if that money were invested in schools in poor neighborhoods, community centers, day care programs, job training and adult education centers, I think that it could do much more overall.
A brief history of prizing fair skin cannot be compared to a history of lynching those with dark.
**
It would be unfair if both started out on equal footing. Middle class whites in America have some almost automatic advantages. They tend to attend better primary and elementary schools. Being more affluent, they often have access to tutors and study aids that aren’t an option for some poorer students. They are almost automatically prepperd for college.
When they finally hit the job market, whites often have the advantage of a better network. Friends of the family are often good at providing job leads.
They may have good, reliable cars. One really can’t underestimate the value of having transportation. If public transit is not available, your job prospects are extremely limited. If your job is minimum wage, paying basic living expenses is a struggle, let alone adding a car payment.
Whites also have better access to good medical and dental care. An employer won’t want to hire a receptionist with missing front teeth, nor do employers appreciate absences from work due to untreated illnesses.
Poor blacks don’t always have access to these advantages. First of all, their educational prospects can be dim. Starting in a poor school with bad teachers, many kids don’t recieve any encouragement to accell academically. Actually, the reverse can often be true, with peers teasing mercilessly any kid who strives in his efforts. Family members can sometimes feel threatened and insulted by a child’s efforts to “better” themselves, because they may feel that the child is saying their lifestyle is not good enough.
For many black students, college is virtually out of the question. An average student with no athletic ability isn’t a likely candidate for a full-ride scholarship, and often a full-ride is the only way that college could be possible. They simply couldn’t afford it otherwise. Knowing from the start that a higher education isn’t in their futures, it can cause some to give up on education altogether.
Racism created their poverty. Had their ancestors came here as willing pioneers on the Mayflower the entire history of black America would be different. I don’t know that I would put it that we “owe” black Americans anything for what happened-- we can’t pay for the mistakes of the past with a check. Nor will a check erase the problems of the present. But, if any reparations went into programs which could actually help, I would see it more as an investment in the future than payment for our history. I think it’s something we should have done long ago. The entire country would benefit, not just blacks.
Native American tribes still suffer fron the same problems as blacks. Their reservations have few employment opprotunities, and as in the west, are often unsuited for cultivation. Their schools are poor, both in cash and quality. The ancestors of these people were brutally slaughtered by the thousands; the road from sea to shining sea was paved with broken treaties. If black Americans should get any kind of reperations assistance in community building, I think the same should happen for Native tribes.
Of course, this begs the question of who would pay the repartations in the first place, which is why I don’t think that they’ll ever be seriously considered. After all, a good portion of the people living in the United States had ancestors who benefitted from slavery. Taxpayers might resent money diverted from other projects and/or higher taxes if it were decided the government should pay. A politician who voted for such a measure might lose popularity and no politician wants that.
Lissa, your argument is based on false pretenses therefore the majority of your post is bogus. You are comparing middle class whites to poor blacks. That’s not fair at all. Apples to oranges? Why don’t you compare the “trailor park trash” whites to the poor blacks? Ah…because they are just as bad off, huh? If you sit around moping about how you are mistreated then you will get exactly what you deserve. You will be in jail or sitting at home on welfare drinking a forty. Same thing I said before “If you are white and don’t succeed you are a failure. If you are black then you are a victim.”
Social darwinism. If they aren’t strong enough then they don’t deserve to succeed. If they are going to give up because it looks difficult then great. It means I have a better chance at succeeding because there will be less competition and no damned “quotas” to meet. To say that college is virtually out of the question is ridiculous. An average black student has many more scholarship opportunities than a white student does. I know this because when I was applying for scholarships it seemed like a majority of them were for minorities.
GET OVER IT! It is so stupid to sit around and gripe about how you have no opportunities when with AA you have more than me. Quit crying and create a future for yourself rather than asking for it to be handed to you. You can whine about not having transportation, peers making fun of you, making your family feel inferior, that there’s a pick-up basketball game in the hood, but the bottom line is that if you want to succeed the opportunity is there my friend. It’s only a matter of if you want to take advantage of it. I am speaking from experience here. I don’t want to go into detail unless someone thinks it’s necessary, but I bet my life was just as hard if not harder than most blacks and minorities. I am now in college doing quite well. There are no excuses for not going to college in this day and age unless you don’t want to.
by Hank Fescue:
How is asking a simple question: “Well, was it fair that my tax-dollars went to reparations for interned Japanese?” rationalizing anything? I’m simply demonstrating that slavery reparations would not be setting a precedence in regards to taking money from people who had no hand in the crimes perpetrated against another people. It has happened before, so why is it suddenly unfair for it to happen again?
My belief is that if you have no qualms about taxpayer dollars going out to Japanese Americans in 1988, which is decades after WWII, then you shouldn’t be using the argument that slavery reparations are unfair on the basis of taxpayer innocence. This has nothing to do with penalizing people.
I understand your point. It just seems odd that you discount the notion that other people in other countries who had more to do with slavery should have any burden for the reparations. You are willing to forget about guilty parties elsewhere and at the same time willing to penalize innocent people here. The taxpayers you refer to I would bet never supported slavery and never will. As has also been pointed out here, it was the western culture who took the lead in making slavery illegal and immoral. You would support taking money from the people who fought a war over freedom for slaves ? Seems odd to me. Thats all.
In addition to the plain & effective points raised by buttonjockey308, I would suggest that reparation payments go to disadvantaged families whose children do well in school. Yes, I am a hippie.
[please don’t de-rail thread]
Somewhat off-topic, but I’ve thought recently about the prevalence of hip-hop culture and the extent that it glamorizes conspicuous consumption.
I’ve entertained the thought that this focus could be due in part to the fact that blacks were denied a chance to get wealthy for so long.
[/please don’t de-rail thread]
Major flaw, though: the people filing the lawsuits for compensation for internment were the actual victims of that internment. Even “decades after WWII”, there are thousands of people of Japanese descent who were victims of the policy (including Star Trek’s George Takei, though he’s said he was too young to fully appreciate how much it sucked at the time).
Had this reparation claim come up around 1900 or 1910, when actual former slaves and actual former-slaveholders were still around in large numbers, it would be more credible. As it stands, though, the actual victims of slavery are all long dead and the people who would now have to pay reparations aren’t the same people who imposed slavery. Feel free to dig up Thomas Jefferson and sue his corpse, if you like.
It was western culture that perpetuated the trans-Atlantic slave trade.
But you contradict your point here. You can’t cry about how unfair it is to penalize the children of immigrants who had nothing to do with slavery and then turn around and say these are the same people who fought against slavery.
Reparations has nothing to do with punishment. It’s about recouping lost earnings. If this country owes a debt to another country, then taxpapers are responsibile for shelling over the bucks…even if they had no part to play in the accumulation of the debt. Citzenship isn’t about individual responsibility. By labeling yourself an American, you take on the responsibilies, benefits, and problems associated with being an American. That may include reparations for parties you didn’t injure personally.
The logistics due to the expired statue of limitations make slave reparations a lost cause (Jim Crow reparations is another ball of wax). Few of the other arguments that have been mentioned on this thread have been very compelling.