So I think I should replace all the windows in my 35 year-old house. It’s in metro-Phoenix and is wood-framed and stucco-covered.
Although they are double pane, all have lost their seals and most have condensation between the panes. Plus, new windows are more efficient, etc.
We’ve started the process of getting quotes. The first company out said “We pull out the existing windows, but not the outer frames. That preserves the weatherproofing and structural integrity of what you have.”
Second company said “Oh no, no. The correct way is to remove everything and replace the entire window, frame, etc. as a unit. That will be waterproof and better for the structure.”
Third and fourth companies agreed with first and second companies respectively.
Please forgive me if I may be using the wrong terms so let me try to clarify: When they build the house they put up the wall with a cut out for the window. A “frame” goes in the wall and then the complete window unit (glass, opener, all other parts except that outermost frame) slides into that. So now I have some companies who want to slide out the window, leaving the frame in place and some who want to take that out too.
Pricing is close enough between the two methods. What I am looking for is whether it’s adequate to remove the window and all the parts around it leaving the frame, or if that’s wrong.
I’ve never dealt with this before and didn’t know a better place to turn than here.
Also couldn’t decide if it’s GQ (“Which method is right?”) or IMHO (“Which method do y’all think is better?”) so I’m ok if this gets mod-moved.
I’m considering some window replacements myself. I have several big sliders and would like to replace them with dual single hung units. Just because I don’t care for the sliders. And yes I should have realized that 15 years ago when we built.
In your situation I’d be interested in the condition of the weather side of the window units. Are they wood, vinyl, some composite material? I’d looked into Renewal by Anderson and they have a composite that they claim is better than vinyl , but some reviewers claim it’s not so good.
When you’re spending a lot of money you want to make good choices.
There is no frame in the wall as you describe. You build the house with a rough opening an inch wider then the window unit. The window just sits in there with shims on all sides to make it level and square. I think what you are calling a frame are the head, the bottom sill and the side jambs. The sash is the movable part in a double hung window. They typically remove the sashes and the small stops that the sash slides on. If you have sash weights they cut the cord and let them drop. The replacement windows are sized to replace the sashes.
That’s a very common way to do it and it has huge advantages if you have aluminum or vinyl siding as those types of siding are either caulked to the jambs or actually wrapped around them. All of the trim remains intact.
Now if those parts are starting to get rotten it’s a different story.
Yes, that’s the way they were in the house I grew up in, built in the 1940s. But the one I am in now is different as is evidenced by half the companies offering to “leave the frames.” (Actually, it’s not an offer. The company either leaves them or replaces them as per their wont.) No luck so far finding a succinct picture I can reference.
@GaryM: The old ones are aluminum but we’re looking at upgrading to vinyl, which all the companies–and everyone we contacted ss a reference–says is better. Now, anyway. We’ll also be changing some single hung to horizontal sliders as a concession to cost. This will be a big, expensive job. Darn it.
Would removing the entire window require removing the stucco so you could get to the flange and then having to patch the stucco after putting in the new windows?
I am thinking about the same thing, also with a stucco house in the desert. In my house the windows are all set centered in a 2x6 outside wall - neither the inside or the outside are flush with the framing. The stucco wraps around to the window frame on the outside, and the drywall wraps around to the frame on the inside. I am very hesitant to do a complete window replacement because of the amount of stucco and drywall that will have to be redone (everything is quite weather tight), so only looking at replacement windows. Haven’t gone much past the thinking/research stage.
Some of it, but not a lot and all the companies hsve said they will repair the stucco to the extent necessary. According to my notes, they “cut the stucco, foam, caulk, repair drywall as necessary snd re-do the stucco, also as necessary.” It’s on me to touch up the paint. @Marvin: If you like I’ll PM you on who I finally go with once I make my decision in a week or two.
Vinyl isn’t really an “upgrade” from aluminum unless your only criteria is thermal performance. Vinyl expands and contracts a lot with temperature variations, and that’s also why they’re only offered in white or near-white colors, since anything darker will cause even more movement. That makes them not operate smoothly, stick, warp, and eventually fail. I’d say they’re no more than a 10-20 year window at best.
If you’re starting from windows that are already double-pane, then you’re not getting a whole lot more benefit unless the old windows are actually drafty (having bad seals and moisture between the glass doesn’t really lead to drafts). You do have better options for low-e coatings today, so in a hot sunny climate that can be a benefit for replacements, but the tradeoff is that vinyl is even less likely to last. The better option is fiberglass or aluminum-clad wood windows. They still have much better thermal performance than all-aluminum, and they’re much more stable.
The difference between a full replacement or an insert replacement is more about cost and aesthetics. Full replacement requires removing the entire frame down to the rough opening, so as mentioned by others there’s a good deal of repair work to do inside and out. Insert replacements are made with slimmer frames and sashes, relying somewhat on the existing frame to provide extra rigidity. They can look just as good as a full replacement without requiring all the drywall or stucco repair, so long as those old frames are in decent enough shape and the trim details look good. The total frame and sash size is still likely to be a bit chunkier than before, but depending on the design of your house that could even be a good thing.
Here in Canada where we have wide temperature swings, vinyl seems to be the default choice.
The old house I owned years ago, we replaced the wood window frames and aluminum sliders with vinyl. The biggest difference was the reduction in outside noise - not to mention the improved insulation value. In my case, the windows had exterior trim (wood) that attached to the window frame and extended over the stucco and similarly for the wood trim inside around the windows. First they removed those trim pieces, then they could get a Sawzall tool in to cut the nails going through the shims; or if the frame was uncooperative, they took out the glass and cut the frame to pry it out. In a few cases - the giant living room window - they broke drywall or stucco , a few pieces the size of my hand or smaller from the bottom; they repaired these. The inside was somewhat problematic, because the aluminum frames had encouraged condensation and some crumbling drywall had to be replaced. But essentially, as others mention - they take out the window unit down to the 2x4 or 2x6 framed opening (hopefully with plastic house wrap still left intact) install the new windows and shim them, then foam and calk (low expansion foam!!) to seal around the windows.
On my new house, I had a problem with one window leaking when there was a driving north rain and 30mph-plus winds. Turns out when caulking around the window, for some reason they left about a half inch gap at the top middle where the caulking and foam started and ended. Fill that and no problems.
I’m going to replace the windows in my house. They are…um…‘newer’, but the previous owners got the cheapest windows available and had them installed by idiots and assholes.
I’m replacing my siding at the same time, so I will replace the entire window. I can’t wait! Hopefully next summer.
If you go with replacements, you lose square inches of glass because you are essentially doubling the frame.
You will also have a large “fin” around the exterior of the window.
It is up to you if you like the look.
I used Midgard vinyl replacements in a condo, because that was code. I would have preferred aluminum but the geniuses on the city council decreed vinyl or fiberglass. Fiberglass is $$.
Vinyl in the CA desert has a life expectancy of less than 10 years.
For my forever house, a MCM–Wexler, blah blah, I am using new construction windows. It requires stucco work on the outside and wallboard/plaster work on the inside, but sooo much better looking.
Cost of new construction seems ~ 20% more.
Don’t use Home Depot or Lowe’s, their customer service, umm, is less than stellar. I litigated vs Home Depot. 4 windows 3 sliders, 7 months. IKYN.
Vinyl seems an upgrade to me based solely on price. I’m being quoted over 50% more for that over aluminum from each installing company. These companies are also telling me vinyl has improved over the years and lasts longer, but that could be all fluff.
Seems inconceivable that everyone replacing windows has to do it every 10-20 years!
I’ve never had much trust in the fancy gases they claim to put in double paned windows.
0.5" of air will stop plenty of cold if you can figure how to seal them up again. Maybe inject that expando-foam stuff? I double paned by hand all the critical windows in my 100+ year old housel, and things are much warmer now, despite my lack of worry about getting a perfect seal. I think most of the R factor comes from the panes and the gap itself.
Aluminum is crap for windows and frames. It conducts heat like copper. You want wood or plastic.
Unless you want to spend a lot of money, I’d seriously consider figuring out how to reseal tour current windows. On a non foggy day of course. While staring at a window trying to figure how to get to the edges of the glass, look for other damage. Ifthere’s a lot that messes with integrity, it is time to replace, but not until that happens. If you’ve got things like single pane front doors, you can fix that with a router, some spacers, and a little clear caulk. -Works wonders.