REPOST: "Fired for being politically incorrect"

NICKRZ says:

“To serve and protect”? What – you’re a Board Cop? Well, you apparently didn’t do a very good job of keeping the peace on your beat. And could you possibly sound any more pompous?

We are all adults here and non of us are out to do anything that would harm of threaten the message board, which gives us so much entertainment and information. The moderators and management would be well-served to assume we can handle things maturely unless and until it is proven otherwise. It’s nice to know that you stand behind the Straight Dope Staff because you know the facts – bully for you. But you must recognize that the posters do not know the facts and no one will TELL us what the heck happened. So your assurances of your loyalty and the rightness of your position cut no ice here. If you want our support you’re going to have to explain what’s going on.

I’ve gotta go with jodih, on this one, Nick. Your ass is in for a lot of wear and tear if you stay on that fence much longer.

Excellently put, Jodi.


–Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny

I have never seen so many SDMBers agree on anything. For the first time, we have C#3, RTA, Melin, PLD, jodih, myself, and all the rest uniting on an issue.

NickRz, you claim to stand behind Ed and Tuba (when no one else here does) because you “know the facts of the matter”. Would you care to fill us in? We’re adults here.

I know I only have Melin’s POV here, but she sounds morally in the right to me. If she did indeed take a stand against a racist statement, as it seems for her post she did, then I aspire to do the same. And if it costed her her job, I respect her the more because of it.

Ed, tell us what happened or I’m going to have to believe you’re covering something up.

Your Quadell

Wow, Nickrz, that did NOT help your cause. You sound like a self-important mall cop. You may want to rethink, or at least restate, your POV.

Kudos to you, jodih…I agree.

Well, Ed, are you going to explain your side, or let us seethe here in our own growing bitterness? And JillGat, are you going to defend yourself, or shall Melin become a sainted martyr and you the Big Bad Bitch?

Probably not. It seems the way most of these things are “handled” is not to handle them at all. Ignore them, refuse to speak, and eventually everyone will stop asking about it and things will move on.

What a healthy way to handle problems. Such integrity. Such morality. Such fairness.

Such cowardice.

Just a quick reply to the above, and then I figure to be done with this.

The two board moderators involved in this dispute were Melin and Jill. Both had been posting to a thread called “minorities” (since pulled) on the General Questions forum.

Jill contacted me Monday morning to say that Melin had posted what Jill considered a personal attack against her. She wanted me to pull this post and her own (Jill’s) posts that precipitated it, on the grounds that it looked bad to have two board moderators quarreling in public.

There had been a previous incident in which Melin appeared to side with a user against another moderator (not Jill) on an administrative matter. I had sent a note to all moderators saying that I expected them to keep their disagreements internal. At the time I was thinking mainly of disagreements about board moderating duties. I was reluctant to tell board moderators they couldn’t get into ANY sort of argument. But I had warned them against appearing overly partisan.

Anyway, I read the “minorities” thread at Jill’s request. Jill had made a certain point repeatedly in several different posts, and once or twice had been a bit snippy about it. Melin had replied with a strongly worded but brief post to the effect that Jill’s comments were “bullshit.” Jill had posted something saying she hoped she hadn’t been misunderstood, etc.

The whole thing seemed pretty mild compared to some flame wars we’ve had and I told Jill I didn’t see the need to delete any posts. Apparently she’d also been in touch with Bruce, the GQ moderator, and he said the same thing.

That evening I got a note telling me to take another look at the “minorities” thread. It had gotten pretty ugly. Other people had taken sides; a friend of Jill’s had jumped on Melin with both feet. Melin had posted a long indignant note accusing Jill of racism, among other things. I was appalled. I was not concerned about the substance of the argument; I simply did not want two moderators duking it out in public. I sent the following note to both Melin and Jill (quoted in its entirety): “I’m not going to get into who’s right and who’s wrong, who started it, or any of that stuff. I’ll just say this: I do not ever want to see a public dispute on the SDMB between SDMB moderators. Please acknowledge.”

Jill’s reply, in its entirety, was, “No problem here.” Melin sent me a long note recapitulating the entire argument, suggesting that she felt it was a moderator’s duty to challenge racist statements, etc.

It seemed clear to me at this point that Melin just wasn’t getting it - that the purpose of having moderators was to moderate, not to pour fuel on the flames. So I decided Melin would have to go. The question was whether I should can Jill too, since she had been partly at fault. I decided against it, since (a) Jill’s initial instinct was that moderators shouldn’t bicker in public, and had brought this matter to my attention privately, before it got out of hand, and (b) she stopped arguing when I made it clear I wanted an end to this. Melin, on the other hand, is STILL arguing.

I am sure Melin is a good person. Clearly she is smart and articulate. But there’s no question in my mind that we’re better off having her as a user than a moderator. Jill has made her share of mistakes (hey, so have I) but has shown a better understanding of what this moderator thing is all about.

This is completely ridiculous . I have lost ALL respect for the Straight Dope, something that I have cherished and respected for many years. This is the last place that I thought this kind of crap would happen. This is truly sad. Management will not be allowed to forget this, as I’m sure my fellow members will attest to. If there is really a Cecil, I have lost all respect for you, too, for not handling this yourself. This is, afterall, YOUR SHOW. You should all be ashamed of yourselves!

Thanks for the explaination, Ed. But what interests me is why the “minorities” thread was deleted in its entirity and why you spent so much time running around deleting Melin’s threads, when you could have just posted the above response (last night!)

If ANY OTHER MEMBER of this board had made the statements Melin had made, we wouldn’t be in this situation. Are we saying moderators can’t make comments on threads? Even if it’s not in their area? If so, better remove David B - lord knows he’s made a lot of comments over in Great Debates, some nice, and some not. Time to remove him!(And yes, that was sarcastic for the humor-impared.)

And one last thing. Put back the goddam thread, folks. Let everyone at least see what happened. That way we can all use our intelligence that this board purports to promote, and decide for ourselves. I’ve never felt my sig line was more appropriate, which is sad. I expected more from this board.


“And the knowlege that they fear is a weapon to be used against them.”
-Neil Peart, RUSH, “The Weapon”

What the heck is wrong with moderators arguing? And on a thread they’re not even moderating, yet?! You’ve done far more harm to our perception of moderators with your actions than a thousand arguing Jill and Melins. As long as they perform their duties honestly, they have the same rights to publically argue as any one of us. I don’t care in the slightest whether it says “moderator” or “member” after someone’s name. They can disagree with me, I can disagree with them, and anyone can disagree with anyone else.


“Eppur, si muove!” - Galileo Galilei

Well I, for one, have substantially LESS of a problem with this now. It appears that Mr. Zotti decided things were out of hand and he handled it as he saw fit – hey, he’s the administrator. We might not all agree with how he handled it, but that’s HIS job, not ours.

The problem for me always was the furtive, cloak-and-dagger purging going on, which was (and is) antithetical to the “fight against ignorance”. If you race around deleting stuff and firing people and then put up a wall of silence, you can expect us posters to get suspicious – and upset. This is not to say that every detail of board administration should be publicly handled, but when a public discourse suddenly becomes a MISSING discourse, we have to start wondering what’s going on. I only have two further comments.

First, it seems to me that this whole dust-up could have been avoided if Mr. Zotti had posted at the end of the minorities thread something like: “This is getting out of hand; everyone simmer down or I’m locking this thread. Melin and Jill, we need to clarify the duties of moderators, and I’ll be e-mailing you both.”

Second, it seems to me that perhaps Mr. Zotti needs to clarify what is and is not acceptable for moderators to post. Apparently, not only are moderators prohibited from disagreeing on adminsistrative matters – where the necessitiy of a united front is understandable – they are prohibited from disagreeing in their capacity as posters, simply because they are moderators as well. It’s not for me to pass judgment of the wisdom of that as a policy, but I do think it should have been made clear to the moderators before now.

The bottom line for me is that I think this is a wonderful environment for discourse and humor on a wide variety of subjects, and I’d like to see it get back to that. I still think Melin’s firing was unfortunate, and I hope she’ll continue to participate as a poster, because I think she was a valuable addition to our twisted little group.

The explanation of why Melin was terminated has left me with questions as to the “policy” of mods posting. Can two moderators not disagree on a topic? If I were to post a “nature vs. nurture” question in GQ and two (non-GQ) mods had different opinions, could they not post and defend their posts?

This is creepy and wrong. My respect for this site has plummeted.


THE STRAIGHT DOPE

Cultivating Ignorance Since 1999


[[I think the whole thing could have been largely avoided if Jill had said, “The only people who have the luxury of ignoring race as a factor also happen to be white.” It’s a small but subtle difference, and a sentiment with which I agree.]] plD

Thanks. I think you articulated my point well there, but it doesn’t guarantee that others might not still misinterpret, disagree or be offended by it. Which is their right. Anyway, that is not the issue here. I like to debate, but I don’t like to get into personal fights. SD Moderators are free to become involved in discussions and debates, but it doesn’t look good when we start flinging mud at each other. It’s embarrassing.

I haven’t responded to the some ten threads on this topic because 1.) One would have to be online 24 hours a day to keep up with all of them (and the bulk were posted last night apparently, so it’s *unfair[/] to say that they were being “ignored” by the administration) and 2.) I’m anxious to put this behind me and stop bickering about it. The only way I can see to do that at this point is to stop talking about it… at least for me. It starts to feel frustrating and pointless and no fun anymore.

I enjoy working for the Straight Dope and am sorry for any part I may have played in this mess.
Jill

I stopped posting on the Minorities thread when I was told by Jenny to do so. I was told to “take it to email” and so I did, telling Ed why I thought the comments about people with white skin were inappropriate, ESPECIALLY from a board moderator – did we want people to think that the board endorses those views? – but keeping that email private. I did not take the matter to this board until after I was replaced as MPSIMS moderator.

I have saved copies of mine and Jill’s posts on that thread, as well as those of a couple of other people who apparently felt the same way I did. Why not repost it and let people decide for themselves?

-Melin
Former Board Goddess

Jill,

My beef isn’t with you. My beef is with Ed and whomever else has adopted the “nothing to see here, move along” mentality.

Ed explained that he sacked Melin because she refused to play nice. Uh . . okay. Sounds fishy but okay.

But deleting the “minorites” thread, running around deleting Melin’s posts and closing threads about it smacks of the kind of totalitarianism that I always thought THE STRAIGHT DOPE was against.

Clashes happen. Firings happen. Okay fine. But running around hiding information, closing threads, and putting your hand to your forehead and saying “I can’t talk about it, it’s too traumatic” is not the way to make this issue go away.

This site is for people who like to get to the bottom of things. Playing “hide the truth” or even giving the illusion of playing it is just going to fan the flames.


[[1.) One would have to be online 24 hours a day to keep up with all of them (and the bulk were posted last night apparently, so it’s *unfair[/] to say that they were being “ignored” by the administration)]]

Sorry… screwed up my code there. Meant to say unfair

I deleted the minorities thread because it would have taken me all morning to cull the offending posts one at a time. Hey, it was a busy day.

I got a call yesterday night saying Melin had posted the identical response on multiple forums, most of which were inappropriate for what she had to say. In a moment of pique I said to delete them all. Later I thought better of it and reposted her message to the BBQ Pit, where it should have been in the first place. It was down for maybe an hour, 90 minutes. What can I tell you? I make a mistake, I fix it.

Quite right, if a non-moderator had made the statements Melin had made, we wouldn’t be in this situation. That’s the point. As I said, I’ve been reluctant to tell moderators they can’t get involved in ANY argument, but I do expect them to express themselves temperately (even if it means biting their tongues). I felt Melin crossed the line. That in itself wouldn’t have been so bad; we all get mad and do things we regret later (see above). But she wouldn’t let go, even after I told her to stop. When you’ve got people working for you (even on a volunteer basis) who won’t take direction, as a manager you don’t have a lot of choice.

You know what? I don’t like people working for me to be screaming at each other in public. I’m just wacky that way.

Let’s see…

A Moderator is fired for voicing her opinion…

Posts and threads turn up suspiciously missing…

An attitude of “I’m in the know and you’re not”…

Admin worrying more about what looks bad in public than in “fighting ignorance”…

Moderators telling the users “let’s all stop talking abou this embarassing issue so we can all just have fun again!”…
Lord help me–I think I’m back on AOL!

Jill, if I may summarize your post:

Point 1) Allow me to get the last word in on the “racism” thing now that the thread has been erased and my opponent has been expelled.

My response: That’s just pathetic.

Point 2) It’s bad for Moderators to fling mud at each other.

My response: Agreed. And it could have been avoided by neither of you posting as moderators, giving contoversial opinions, and seeming by Ed to represent the SD with your views.

  1. I haven’t responded because I can’t keep up.

My response: Okay, that’s fair.

  1. I haven’t responded to this because I don’t want to talk about it, and I wish you all would stop talking about it too.

My responses: Well we aren’t going to ignore it. Sorry. You still have your job, any evidence of abuse of your position has been covered up, and people are seeing you as the bad guy. Of course you want the issue to go away. But we won’t be satisfied in an environment where disagreeing with moderators is punished, where certain posters can’t air their views, and where entire incriminating threads just disappear for the protection of the moderators who are left.

It seems to me that if moderators were forbidden from posting (as moderators representing the SD), there would be no problem with anything that happened here. “Phenomenal” or whoever would have disagreed with “Jilly” or whoever, and that would have been fine. But as it is, no one is happy with the way things turned out. Learn from this. If you moderators don’t represent the Straight Dope, then firing Melin was unjustified. If you do, then act like it, and stop posting comments that are perceived as racist under your own names.

Your Quadell