Veg:
If you wanna get technical about it, she is correct and you are not. Because her original assertion was that LEAVING was NOT her choice. And it was not. She was going to be gone one way or another. She was not given an option to NOT be gone. She was only given a choice as to how the end result of her no longer being employed there would be accomplished.
Are YOU ready for Y2K? Take my advice: Panic early and avoid the rush.
I’d be happy to get technical about it, Stoidela. At the point in time at which the company said, “resign or be fired,” she made a choice. Had she chosen differently, a subsequent act by the company may have resulted in a similar outcome. But we’ll never know if that would have happened, because she made the choice to leave. Leaving first, before finding out if they would follow through with the other option, was her choice.
Does the company suck? Could be. Did they treat her fairly? I have no idea. If I was in the situation as it was described, I’m sure I would have done the same thing. But it would have been my choice.
You may disagree, but I don’t think it’s just a matter of semantics. Somebody asks you to resign and you decide to do it, fine. Just don’t claim you had no choice, because you did.
Rich
Normally I try to keep my nose clean and stay out of disputes like this. Whether because I’m wise and can see both sides of an issue or I’m an coward and rather sit on the fence. Either way the original thread in General Questions should not have been deleted. As it can not be re-posted without being edited by management for better or worse I will not copy it here. If anyone would like to see the thread as of 08-02-99 07:10 PM please e-mail me and make up your own mind.
“You CAN’T be evil. 'Cos no matter how many ‘bad’ things you do on purpose,
you MUST be doing it because you think it’s the right thing to do.”
Normally I try to keep my nose clean and stay out of disputes like this. Whether because I’m wise and can see both sides of an issue or I’m an coward and rather sit on the fence. Either way the original thread in General Questions should not have been deleted. As it can not be re-posted without being edited by management for better or worse I will not copy it here. If anyone would like to see the thread as of 08-02-99 07:10 PM please e-mail me and make up your own mind.
“You CAN’T be evil. 'Cos no matter how many ‘bad’ things you do on purpose,
you MUST be doing it because you think it’s the right thing to do.”
I am posting this while I’m only halfway done with reading the thread, and will post more when I have finished. I wanted to take a moment to invite anyone who had saved the thread or parts of it to repost it at the Teeming Millions Homepage message board, which will NOT be censored, you have my word.
http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/bbs.html
>^,^<
“Cluemobile? You’ve got a pickup…”
OpalCat’s site: http://fathom.org/opalcat
The Teeming Millions Homepage: fathom.org/teemingmillions
Ok, no one asked, but here is my opinion:
It is LAME that a moderator is not allowed to be a “poster” when out of their forum. I think this is a bad policy. I agree with the person who pointed out that our respect of the moderators is not needed for them to do their jobs.
It is also pretty crappy that Melis was fired. I don’t think it was neccessary. I may have the facts wrong, but it sounds to me like Melin took it to Email with Ed, but when she continued to make her point -in email- he decided she was unworthy to moderate the board. This sounds to me like kids getting suspended from school because the principal catches them smoking at the mall on the weekend.
I also have to agree that Tuba’s remark was VERY low and uncalled for. It was very dismissive of Melin’s capabilities, which I think have never been in question. It was like saying “she wasn’t fit for the job anyway, you know…”
I can’t help but feel a loss here. I will probably keep posting occassionally, but my enthusiasm and respect for this site has dropped drastically. I know nothing I say will change the outcome, but I do want to go on record as feeling that this was rotten.
>^,^<
“Cluemobile? You’ve got a pickup…”
OpalCat’s site: http://fathom.org/opalcat
The Teeming Millions Homepage: fathom.org/teemingmillions
DOH “Melin” not “Melis”
I knew who I meant, but I type one more than the other and my fingers got ahead of me.
>^,^<
“Cluemobile? You’ve got a pickup…”
OpalCat’s site: http://fathom.org/opalcat
The Teeming Millions Homepage: fathom.org/teemingmillions
Veg:
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
You are being ridiculous.
Ed: Major screw up here, I’m afraid, and I’m not talking about Melin.
Drain Bead: Believe I must correct you here: it’s “…who needs enemas”, not “…who needs enemies”
Stoidela, thanks for your input. I’ll file it appropriately.
Personally, I’d feel more satisfaction saying, “I chose to resign because management at the company is a buncha creeps anyway, if I hadn’t resigned they probably would have dishonestly trumped up some charge and fired me” rather than, “I didn’t have a choice.”
But if you’d rather be a victim, and not take responsibility for the choices you make, have at it. . .
Rich
On the bright side of all of this, absolutely NO one-dimensional psycho-strawmen were invoked in the making of this argument…
VegForLife:
You just don’t know what you are talking about. Being forced to resign is a choice to give up unemployment benefits in exchange for avoiding a “fired” reference to other employers. If an employer says “you can resign or be fired”, there isn’t an issue as to “finding out if they would follw through”. You know that they will. Being forced to resign is a firing with cosmetic enhancement, nothing more.
I have only lost one job against my will, and it was under this sort of circumstance. The issue of a reference can be the sort of thing that can be critical to your career.
Tuba:
All I can say is that I’m glad I’m not one of your “dear” friends. Is that sort of attack by an employee okay by Ed just because it is thinly sugar-coated?
OK. We have all decided (to our own satisfaction, at least) who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. At this point, I can’t think of any statement (or action) that anyone could make that could make everyone happy. (Obviously, there are actions that could make a majority happy, but those actions have their own ramifications for future conflicts.)
I am saddened by the whole turn of events, but I am also of the belief that dwelling on this will simply create a Northern Ireland or Former Yugoslavia in miniature. (I hate you because you said/did this 3,568 posts ago to a friend of a friend in a different Forum.)
On the other hand, the issue that Jill and Melin got angry over was an important issue for our times (given that, with a few notable exceptions, the membership, here, tends to be a motley of USAns. I would like to see the origianal thread re-posted. If Melin has the complete thread (or complete from some point to the end), let her post it. If it can be retrieved from backup, let that be posted. Post it here in the BBQ Pit. Lock it as soon as it’s posted so that we have to start a new thread with, perhaps, less heat and more light. But post it.
I don’t want to contradict Lynn. I would not be surprised that moderators have no way to recover a lost or deleted thread. On the other hand, I would be extremely surprised to find that the Chicago Reader or the Straight Dope was not taking weekly volume backups with nightly incremental backups. (That would suggest that a single head crash could force the whole board to start from scratch, some day.)
I was current with the thread until midnight (EDT) on Monday or Sunday (whenever it was last available). At that time, nothing had been posted that was too hot for the BBQ pit. If Ed chooses to enforce a “no fighting” rule on the moderators, that is his perogative and we can stay or leave as we see fit, but I think some of the speculation would be put to rest if we could see the actual posts. (I realize that the first reaction if it is posted will be 80-90% of the respondents screaming “Melin was fired for THAT?” while another 10-20% will huff “Well, no wonder they threw her out!” However, we have already heard both Ed and Melin. The actual posts will probably confirm what we each already want to believe, but at least there will not be speculation over the actual words posted.)
Bias acknowledgment: I tend to agree more nearly with Jill’s ideas, but I saw no reason why Melin (moderator or not) could not post any of the ideas that I saw up until the last post I read.
(Actually, I’m just ticked off that it got deleted before I had the time to post a contribution.)
Tom~
Well! I’m not quite sure how to feel about this.
Melin, you’re the only moderator who’s ever yanked one of my messages (too much cut&paste of a copyrighted page), though I’m sure others have been tempted. I must say you were correct to do so. Thus, an hour ago, if anyone had asked me to name the moderators on this board, you’re the only one I honestly could have named (besides David B whose status was made an issue of by someone in another thread, and Mr. Zotti himself, of course). I really don’t read the tiny text under people’s names specifying whether they are moderators or not, because it never seemed to matter before. I am sorry to see you go, Melin.
Knowing now that there are hidden guidelines controlling what moderators may or may not post, I will view their opinions differently. I’m sure everything in the guidelines will be couched in terms of “civility” and “temperance” and so forth, but from the impression Melin was obviously left with, one wonders if the remaining moderators will not feel compelled to edit themselves for content, as well. Whether it’s true or not, I’m left suspecting, and that’s too bad.
Mr.Zotti has tried to explain to us his view, albeit a bit belatedly and not exactly wholeheartedly. It is not an indefensible position he presents, though of course to the personality types (like me) who frequent this board it inevitably seemed high handed and inappropriate for the tenor of the SD. It leaves us with a bad taste in our mouths, and a bad impression of how seriously open this forum is. And that’s too bad, too.
TubaDiva, I will graciously assume that the tone of your post came out not quite the way you intended. I’ve done that once or twice. JillGat, I don’t know you, and I don’t know the whole story, so I guess I can’t really hold this against you.
But of course, I’m not being allowed to know the whole story, am I, Mr. Zotti? Until I’ve read the posts in question, I can’t possibly decide whether to leave this board or not. The fact that they are missing is the sorest spot, for me anyway (I couldn’t get OpalCat’s link to work). I guess I’ll compromise: Instead of a boycott, I’ll just restrict my reading. The turnover in your ads will go down by some fraction of my usual contribution; but if time passes and the board recaptures my attention by the spirit of openness I thought I was seeing before, I’ll no doubt find myself drawn back in.
First: I’m male, for those who assumed otherwise. (I think I may need a new username if this keeps up.)
Second: Veg, Stoidela, the fired/resigned discussion is getting a bit tangential for this thread. I’m opening a new one in GD entitled “Fired Or Not?” Let’s take it there.
Thanks for posting the “minorities” thread, C3. I finally feel like I have a clearer understanding of what prompted the SD staff to act as they did.
I would have to say that it was the right decision, poorly executed. Melin’s carpet-bombing of the boards with her side of the story didn’t exactly make it easy for the SD administrators to come out of this looking good, but then that was probably the intent.
All it took was showing me the thread. I get it now. Thanks for posting it, Contestant #3.
Thanks from me too, Connie…is that the full thread, or just a segment?
I have to disagree with Leslie on this one.
Yes, the thread turned into a whine-in.
Yes, everyone was nit-picking everyone else.
Yes, feelings were bruised.
But hell, that’s SOP for this board-- moderators included.
IMHO, it was in no way grounds for any kind of action, other than a polite “take this to the pit, you guys” (which was suggested early in the thread).
No, I don’t agree with the public posting of what was assumed to be a private discussion (the IM thing), but AFAIK, the IM log was not posted–chalk it up as an hasty statement in an emotional moment. I’m sure before actually posting such a thing, Melin would have thought better of it.
Personally, I think the topic was perfect for TSDMB–emotionally charged, lots of grey areas, and both sides know that they’re right.
If that was indeed the full thread, then mark me down as “baffled” as to what the big deal was.
[[(i.e. Jill getting one last word in and Tuba’s public dig)
Man. I get dissed if I don’t talk, and I get dissed if I do. I give up.
Jill
I still love Cecil.
Jill, I don’t think Diane was complaining that you posted. We’re glad you posted and let us know where you stand on the firing issue.
Diane (well, several of us actually) objected to your getting the last word in about the minorities thing, making sure your opinion got voiced even after the thread got deleted.
Your Quadell