So how long have you been waiting to use this quote from your hero?
~sighs~
can we please keep this above, say, a fifth grade level?
Oh, yeah! Well, why don’t you and Jane Fonda just go back to Russia where you belong!
Stoid please realize that most who voted for W think that the DMC and Kerry were the ones who lied. I respect your point of view, though I disagree w/ it. Who’s is telling the truth and who is not? I don’t know for sure, but I am open and watching what happens, hopefully you will be willing to do the same.
No, Stoids whole rant is bratish and juvenile. But I’ll admit, I rather enjoy it.
Well, if the rant is brattish and juvenile, we should certainly devolve as quickly as possible into name calling and bullshit.
(I suggest you talk about how Hitler fucked Stoid’s mamma, or about how your daddy can but up Stoid’s daddy.)
Oh, and bricker: you going to address the ‘honesty quotient’ in your debating style? I’m willing to accept that I’ve misread you, but right now it seems that you were so quick to throw a charge of hipocracy at me because you, yourself, want to argue both sides of the issue in order to ‘win’.
OK, so both sides lied. Which lies were worse? Which lies were bigger lies? Which lies have cost lives and divided this country?
Al Queda / Osama are in league with Husain (false).
Iraq is an imminent threat (false).
Weapons of mass destruction (false) Read the CIA report - “none found”, “no indication”, “no evidence”.
Nuclear weapon materials (false) Read the CIA report - “none found”, “no indication”, “no evidence”.
Swift Boaters (false).
Hannity, Combs, Coulter, Limbaugh, Fox News (good for a laugh but not exactly good impartial “journalism”)
Dems will outlaw Bibles (false).
Nation building and spreading freedom (false).
Gays will destroy marriage (false).
All Muslims want to kill us (false).
Bin Laden isn’t important anymore (because it is too inconvenient to admit we blew it on catching him).
The economy is doing great and there are lots of jobs (in India).
We are winning the “peace” in Iraq (false).
Halliburton got the monopoly in Iraq fairly and isn’t cheating the Army (false).
Other countries either don’t support us or backed away, well because they suck (no, they just didn’t buy the party line).
We found materials, we didn’t find them, we lost them, they vanished (which one is it?)
Keep steadfast and keep persevering. Keep going on, even though almost everything we were told was proved false, even by our own government agencies.
Absolutely. Bookmark this thread.
If in the next four years, Bush supports a Social Security benefits-cutting plan that exceeds 30%, you will have (A) my apology, and (B) a LONG rant at Bush’s lie. (Remember that the Kerry ad claimed Bush had a secret plan to privatize Social Security and cut benefits 30-45%, so a cut of ar least 30% is required to make that come true.)
I agree that the “final reality” is yet to be shown. So I suppose you can claim that if this happens, Kerry wasn’t lying after all. And I’d agree.
I do find it funny that this generous interpretation is unavailable for Bush… unless you’d say that if WMDs are discovered NOW, you’d immediate acknowledge Bush was not lying. But I won’t resort to that double standard. If Bush proposes cutting benefits by over 30%, then he lied, Kerry told the truth, and I will not only apologize, I’ll freaking GROVEL.
Not at all. The “Bush didn’t lie” line was in reference to a specific issue: the evidence of WMDs. It was at the conclusion of that discussion that I said we’ve disposed of the “Bush lied” business.
Many of Bush’s TV ads were so distorted as to constitute outright lies. I never denied that, and I reaffirm it now: Bush lied in his TV ads.
Seeing that, I might have been moved to vote for Kerry. But he lied in his TV ads too. So I can’t use “Candidate Lies in TV Ads” as a method to choose between Bush and Kerry, since they both did so.
And let me share this blogger’s essay: I found it very well done.
This is a voter the Democrats should have had. It was not Republican lies that switched her vote, as you may plainly see.
http://fromasadamerican.blogspot.com/2004/11/how-you-could-have-had-my-vote.html
Actually Bricker, I plainly see that it was precisely that which made her vote that way.
And here is what I wrote to her:
With all due respect…hooey.
-
Because you didn’t understand Kerry, doesn’t mean Kerry can’t be understood. 50 million of us understood him, I understood him. The paragraph where you go into this is just a bunch of Bush attack lines strung together. You say you can think for yourself, great… but you can’t see how Kerry (and millions of us) can look at the war and say “Wrong war, wrong place wrong time…but now we’re there and we have to deal with the situation as it now is, we can’t go back in time and unmake it. Since Bush made such a mess of things so far, he obviously doesn’t have great plans for fixing it. I do.” That is so amazingly complex you just don’t get it? Seems pretty straightforward to me.
-
Terrorism IS a crime, not an act of war. Criminals DO live among us, eat with us, work with us, that is the nature of criminals. remember: just because the results were spectacular, doesn’t mean the acts were. The acts were guys with boxcutters, who never dreamed the towers would actually fall. And some response involving the military was in fact called for: send our guys into Afghanistan to go after Osama, Al Queda, and root out the regime that supported them: the Taliban. Kerry and the Democrats supported this action 100%. BUT SADDAM HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF IT!!! IRAQ WAS WRONG!!! Sorry, I just don’t now why it is some people just refust to hear that no matter howmany commissions, reports, soldiers, intelligence officers, etc, tell you those facts. There were no weapons, and Saddam and Osama were enemies, period. Unlike Bush, who wants to just lash out at any easy target (that has lots of oil), Kerry wants to go after actual terrorists.
You say you were scared to vote for Bush. Would that be because you are actually aware of the fact that his actions in Iraq have made terrorism MORE OF A THREAT to us? Because they have, and jsut a little tiny bit of reading will clarify that for you.
-
Regarding the vietnam issue; You don’t see the relevence of a man who has actually been in war, shown leadership and courage under fire, being the commander in chief? That association really escapes you?
-
Ah, can’t stand Bush bashing, eh? Air America just makes you feel vomited on, so you have to vote Republican? Would that be because Ann Coulter makes you feel warm, fuzzy and righteous? Give me a huge break, please. This makes NO sense. Not only is it perfectly laughable to suggest that the left is more vicious than the right, it is laughable to base your vote for president on which political pundits appeal to you on a personal level. That’s freakin’ pathetic.
So in the end, you decided to vote for bush because he stands for something…he stands for stuff you don’t agree with, and he scares the shit out of you, but hey, at least he sticks to his scary, terrible, deadly ideas!
Good god, listen to yourself!
Oh, and please please please please learn to differentiate between radio show hosts and United States Senators, Please? Because I guarantee that Senators Kerry and Edwards never said anything remotely abuseive to you or about you.
So I beg you: next election, stop listening to ANYBODY’s radio shows and dumbass tv garbage, stop watching ads, and just EDUCATE yourself about the biolgraphies, accomplishments, and ideas of each candidate. I’m willing to bet a large pile of hard earned money that you didn’t read John Kerry’s website, didja? You couldn’t have, or you would never have written this embarassing plea.
For shame."
Stoid: I was going to go through her post much like you did… but in the end (and the beginning) she’s just a moron.
She felt her intelligence was insulted?
That’d sure be tough…
Personally, I don’t think conservative ideas won; I think conservative values won. There’s a big difference. Ideas change with time and circumstance. Values remain constant and serve as a foundation upon which to base ideas. Most Americans, I believe, voted for the values that are guiding the Bush adminstration, rather than for any specific group group of ideas.
Well fuck, I’m gobsmacked.
What exactly would these values y’all saw in Bush be?
I thought the values guiding the Bush administration were
cronyism
doublespeak
fiscal irresponsibility
shoddy intel designed to further political goals
disregard for future generations as evinced by their contempt for the enviornemtn
etc…
kindly inform me of what your side of the aisle saw in this gent?
Here’s my answer to that , SA, because I think you are largely right, horribly enough:
"Dear rural/exurban Christian conservative voters: Congratulations on your election victory. By going to the polls in unprecedented numbers Tuesday, you overwhelmed an enormous Democratic turnout and returned President Bush to office, along with a number of very conservative senators. Now Bush is preparing to repay your efforts by moving immediately on your highest priorities: a flat tax and privatizing Social Security.
Oh, wait. You didn’t particularly hanker for those things, did you? The election is so far in the past now that it has receded into a hazy memory. But as I recall, you voted for Bush because of his position on one issue — he opposes gay marriage — and on the general principle that he is a godly man who shares your values. Now Bush has decided, conveniently enough, that those values are identical to those of his wealthy financiers."
Man, you are a total asshole, Exgineer. Fuck you.
“Nobody died when Kerry lied,” right? I just thought it ridiculous that Stoid seems to want to cannonize Kerry. Saying he didn’t lie during the campaign is simply ludicrous. Every politician lies. Every single one of them. Kerry is no exception.
No, I didn’t get my way. Michael Badnarik is not President-Elect. If I had my way, this war would be over and we’d all get together, sit in a circle, and smoke week That 70’s Show style. You know, where we take turns receiving amazing revelations in a clockwise fashion while eating Twinkies and drinking Yoo Hoo.
Doubt about what? Stoid’s intelligence? Not at all, I’ve never thought much of it.
Right. You can see the difference, can’t you? Are all lies the same for you? Is “Saddam was behind the 9/11 attacks and we have to get back at him” on the same level as “No, honey, that skirt doesn’t make your butt look big?” Please.
No, it’s ridiculous to think she said anything more than that he was clearly the superior choice. (NB: You put an extra “n” in there - to “cannonize” someone would involve the use of a cannon, and on second thought maybe she did mean that).
Then help us out here: What was your favorite Kerry lie? What consequences did or would it have in the real world?
And here’s an even more careful and comprehensive response to the “Sad American” (who I am increasingly convinced does not exist. “Be nice to me and I’ll vote for you!” good grief.)
If I misunderstood you, LA, you have my sincere apology, Lord knows, I wouldn’t want to falsely accuse a Libertarian of being aligned with the Forces of Darkness, than with the Army of Determined Irrelevance.
I oft heard it posed as an accusation, that one like myself was more voting against Bush than for Kerry. In my own instance, one-hunnerd percent true. As you probably gleaned from my posts, I think GeeDubya sub-optimal.
My wrath is better targeted on those who voted for, rather than those who merely did not vote against. You may be comforted by taking a position of principled pointlessness. In truth, I cannot really understand why. But your right to make such a decision, I infer, is as sacred to you as it is to me. That’s a good enough start.
Now, if I can only convince you that Libertarianism is a political philosophy wandering about aimlessly in search of a purpose… And, as well, that if you need targets to vent contempt upon, there are far, far fatter targets than Stoidella. She is oftimes wrong, but she is more right than she is wrong, and power is in the grip of those who are terribly, terribly wrong.