Republicans' war on transgender people: Omnibus thread

[Banquet_Bear]

@magellan01

I don’t think that’s correct. There seems to be legitimate concern among experts that we got where we are too quickly and some of the is being rethought.

…Here’s the thing: about experts:

@magellan01

Here is an interesting video that describes how we got to where we are:

History of trans care for children

You argue that there is legitimate concern about experts, which gives you the perfect opportunity to link to some actual experts. Its the perfect set up. You could have destroyed me, right here, completely devastated my argument, by providing a link to some peer reviewed data that backed up your assertion that there is legitimate call for debate.

But then you linked to that.

The youtube video was produced by Michael Beggs, AKA online as MrHenryWimbush, a rather prolific transphobic shit-poster. So that immediately puts the independence of anything in that 26 minute video in doubt. The video starts with the claim that “all trace of a 2011 Tavistock study had disappeared” which, in light of the fact that all trace of the 2011 Tavistock study haven’t disappeared, is obviously a blatant lie. I didn’t feel the need to watch any more after that.

You could have put the nail in the coffin here! I, right now, could have linked to five different studies that would have supported your case much better than this video and would have been infinitely harder to debunk.

But you went for the shit-sandwich.

And thats the problem here. You’ve failed the credibility test. If you go back and read this thread you will see that we didn’t dismiss your citations out-of-hand. Even the link to the worst journalists in the world at the Daily Wire. We did our due-dilligence. I investigated the claims. The Daily Wire couldn’t even get something as basic as Dr Kaliala’s workplace right.

You haven’t done the work. You don’t understand the articles you are linking too. You don’t understand just how-out-of-step they are with the scientific consensus, with the peer-reviewed research, nor the agendas of the people behind the work or who is publishing it. That’s the problem.

@magellan01

Pushback against points of view that go against the prevailing narrative? SHOCKING!!

You want to debate “what is a woman” in Great Debates? Go ahead. Lets see if your evidence can stand up to scrutiny. Lets see your work.

You want to debate that here in the pit? Fuck-the-fuck off with that. I don’t care if you are on my side or not.

@magellan01

’m interested in where the science is now and what the best practices are based on that. You, and others, seems to be blissfully intent on embracing the protocols currently in place while holding up a cross and strands of garlic to fend off new information.

You aren’t bringing new information to the table. Much of the information you’ve cited are reworked talking points. There isn’t anything that hasn’t already been debated widely by the experts, that haven’t already been tested, investigated and reviewed. And we know this because we have linked to several sources in opposition to the cites.

Again: we haven’t rejected your citations out of hand…not until it got to the point where it became clear that you aren’t doing your due diligence. You’ve cried wolf too many times. And linking to a video by MrHenryWimbush just sealed the deal.

@Endocrine Society

The American Medical Association (AMA) House of Delegates today passed the Endocrine Society’s resolution to protect access to evidence-based gender-affirming care for transgender and gender-diverse individuals.

As political attacks on gender-affirming care escalate, it is the responsibility of the medical community to speak out in support of evidence-based care. Medical decisions should be made by patients, their relatives and health care providers, not politicians.

…

The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Urological Association, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, the American College of Physicians, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinology, GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ+ Equality and AMA’s Medical Student Section co-sponsored the Society’s resolution.

…

Due to widespread misinformation about medical care for transgender and gender-diverse teens, 18 states have passed laws or instituted policies banning gender-affirming care.

…

These policies do not reflect the research landscape. More than 2,000 scientific studies have examined aspects of gender-affirming care since 1975, including more than 260 studies cited in the Endocrine Society’s Clinical Practice Guideline.

AMA strengthens its policy on protecting access to gender-affirming care

You want to look at the science? There are 260 studies cited in the Endocine Society’s Practice Guideline. Tell me why we should be starting with Billboard Chris or shitposter MrHenryWimbush instead what the overwhelming majority of the research says.

You are cherry-picking with a side-order of gish-gallop. And you are on the wrong side of history.

[squeegee]

That was a great post! Really enjoyed it, great points.

But.

Troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll

Are we clear? Please stop. You’re not changing minds. None of this matters.

That poster has made 102 posts just in this thread in 6 days. All bullshit. Stop. Please.

Sorry if this offends, but c’mon!

[steronz]

@magellan01

If my child had gender dysphoria I’d do everything I could to have him grow up to be a healthy adult. That would mean as as much psychiatric care as he needed and the chance to go though puberty. Not taking that approach seem cruel to me. [Shrug]

Hey dipshit, do you understand that Republicans don’t want you to give trans kids psychiatric care either?

[ekedolphin]

No kidding. They’re trying to defund The Trevor Project, a suicide hotline for LGBT youth. Not just trans youth. All LGBT youth.

[crowmanyclouds]

Have we really assed the entire concept of hotlines and the technology they use to be sure they’re 99.99999% safe? I think we aught to wait and not rush into using this . . . right Mags?
YouTube links to the dangers of 5G and it’s connection to Covid available on request.

[Ann_Hedonia]

And Viagra can cause permanent blindness and a complete loss of erectile function in some men.

I’m very concerned about this, we as a society must take action.

[Smapti]

@Ann_Hedonia

And Viagra can cause permanent blindness and a complete loss of erectile function in some men

Concerning

[MrDibble]

Just FYI, I posted this:

Trolling in the Pit

@Miller It’s painfully obvious that trolling is happening in the Republican’s war on transgender people thread, and has been for days now. Is the reluctance to warn or, preferably, thread-ban the troll because you’ve been involved in the thread and are worried that you won’t come off as impartial? Get another, uninvolved mod from another forum to sign off on it then. Or do you think that the troll is not trolling? Because come on… I’ve been avoiding participating in that clusterfuck because…

[Buck_Godot]

@magellan01

But they need to be embracing new information. That’s how science works.

Which they are because they are scientists. So they take all of the studies from all different areas evaluate their pluses and minuses and reach a conclusion. The scientist has a very simple agenda get at the truth.

@magellan01

but listening to what they’re hearing from other experts

Experts which, just like yours, are carefully selected from the minority of the opinions because they match their anti-trans agenda. You think that they listen to all sides, they can’t even listen to the experience of one of their own house members. If you don’t believe that the Republican party is trying exploit anti-trans sentiment to motivate their base, read the rest of the fucking thread.

And they aren’t just saying that the situation is complicated and so we shouldn’t assume the more widely held belief is the correct one. They are saying they that the consensus view is definitely wrong and anyone who acts as though its not should be jailed.

I seriously cannot see how one can look at these two groups and decide that the politicians are more likely to have the right answer.

Is this how you usually go through life? Do you pick the restaurant that has the lowest Yelp rating because if it has a hundred one star ratings and 2 five star ratings, then the one star ratings must be from people who are just following the pack and don’t count, so those two brave five star individuals must have the right answer?

[DesertDog]

@squeegee

That poster has made 102 posts just in this thread in 6 days. All bullshit. Stop. Please.

On another board I peruse one of the wise board elders commented, “You can’t make a reputation on this board* but you can sure ruin one.”

*We all interact in meat-space as well.

[magellan01]

Was looking over the thread this morning before I head out for the weekend and looked again at Chela’s links to The BMJ. This seems to be a good synopsis of the state of trans care for youth in 2023.

Synopsis of trans care for youth in 2023

More children and adolescents are identifying as transgender and are being offered medical treatment, especially in the US—but some providers and European authorities are urging caution because of a lack of strong evidence.

As the number of young people receiving medical transition treatments rises, so have the voices of those who call themselves “detransitioners” or “retransitioners,” some of whom claim that early treatment caused preventable harm.8 Large scale, long term research is lacking,9 and researchers disagree about how to measure the phenomenon, but two recent studies suggest that as many as 20-30% of patients may discontinue hormone treatment within a few years.1011 The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) asserts that detransition is “rare.”12

Chloe Cole, now aged 18, had a double mastectomy at age 15 and spoke at the AAP rally. “Many of us were young teenagers when we decided, on the direction of medical experts, to pursue irreversible hormone treatments and surgeries,” she read from her tablet at the rally, which had by this time moved indoors to avoid confrontation. “This is not informed consent but a decision forced under extreme duress.”

Internationally, however, governing bodies have come to different conclusions regarding the safety and efficacy of medically treating gender dysphoria. Sweden’s National Board of Health and Welfare, which sets guidelines for care, determined last year that the risks of puberty blockers and treatment with hormones “currently outweigh the possible benefits” for minors.24 Finland’s Council for Choices in Health Care, a monitoring agency for the country’s public health services, issued similar guidelines, calling for psychosocial support as the first line treatment.25 (Both countries restrict surgery to adults.)

Medical societies in France, Australia, and New Zealand have also leant away from early medicalisation.2627 And NHS England, which is in the midst of an independent review of gender identity services, recently said that there was “scarce and inconclusive evidence to support clinical decision making”28 for minors with gender dysphoria29and that for most who present before puberty it will be a “transient phase,” requiring clinicians to focus on psychological support and to be “mindful” even of the risks of social transition.30

Have a nice weekend.

[steronz]

Even the counterpoints you’re picking here recommend gender affirming psychological treatment, which Republicans want to ban. And you won’t address this because you’re a coward for sure, and a transphobe for probable.

Have a weekend where all of this is a hypothetical game for you.

[iiandyiiii]

Even if we accept all of that, the answer is still to let doctors and parents make the decision, not legislators. I’m pretty sure you’re trolling, but on the off chance you’re not, this is your chance to agree that Republican efforts to ban such care, even when the best science supports it for some patients, are wrong and hurts families.

[Banquet_Bear]

@magellan01

Medical societies in France, Australia, and New Zealand have also leant away from early medicalisation.2627

…what the fuck is this bullshit?

From the citation:

@RANZCP

A gender affirmative approach endorses the belief system that children should be able to ‘live in the gender that feels most real or comfortable to that child and to express that gender with freedom from restriction, aspersion, or rejection’ therefore the child’s statements regarding their gender identity should not be questioned, but instead accepted.[29] Affirmative approaches may include consideration of the need for medical treatments including gender affirming hormones, gonadotrophin releasing hormone analogues (GnRH) (in children and adolescents) and surgery. Approaches which don’t include medical treatments may focus on utilising psychotherapy to aid individuals with Gender Dysphoria in exploring their gender identity, and aid alleviation of any co-existing mental health concerns identified in screening and assessment.[24]

…

Recommendations

The RANZCP recommends the following actions to support the mental health needs of people experiencing Gender Dysphoria/Gender Incongruence:

• Psychiatrists should engage with people experiencing Gender Dysphoria in a way which is person-centred, non-judgmental and cares for their mental health needs.
• Assessment and treatment should be based on the best available evidence and fully explore the person’s gender identity and the biopsychosocial context from which this has emerged.
• Health services should take steps to accommodate the needs and ensure the cultural safety of people experiencing Gender Dysphoria/Gender Incongruence.
• Further research should be supported and funded in relation to wellbeing and quality of life during and after medical and surgical interventions for Gender Dysphoria/Gender Incongruence.

Mental health needs of people experiencing Gender Dysphoria / Gender | RANZCP

There is nothing in that document that supports the assertion that Block makes here. And that matches up with the other criticisms, which I’ve already posted in this thread, but I’ll post again for your convenience

@Banquet_Bear

…there was a HUGE amount of pushback from professionals in the field to that article. Here are some of them:

https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382/rr-8 https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382/rr-6

From the last one:

The article on gender dysphoria in young people by Jennifer Block (1) would appear at first inspection to offer an evidence-based review. However, the assertions made are in some cases unsupported by reference, and in others are based on only some of the available evidence.

Early on the article reports that the numbers of people openly identifying as transgender, and being referred for gender affirming care, have ‘surged’ in recent years. However, a similar ‘surge’ was seen in the 20th Century with the rates of individuals openly identifying as left-handed after it became more acceptable to be left-handed.

…

Of the studies quoted when discussing detransition, one actually refers to hormone continuation rates, not detransition, and finds that individuals who start hormones prior to age 18 are more likely than adults to continue taking them beyond four years (3).

…

When talking about the ‘surge in treatment of minors’, the author references a cross-sectional study which shows the co-existence of gender dysphoria with mental health conditions such as anxiety, depression, autism and ADHD, but does not demonstrate the direction of causation (8). The author does not include the evidence that gender affirmation in trans people is associated with a reduction anxiety and depression (9,10).

…

We might continue and look at other aspects of the article, but this has been covered to an extent in other rapid responses (11,12), and space here does not permit a more detailed treatment. Suffice it to say that this ‘investigation’ does not report evenly on the available evidence.

The foundation is strong for safe reversible science based adolescent gender care. As long as you listen to the consensus and the experts, and not people with an agenda.

This obviously isn’t a good synopsis of the state of trans care for youth in 2023.

This is a good synopsis of trans care for youth in 2023.

@Banquet_Bear

The American Medical Association (AMA) House of Delegates today passed the Endocrine Society’s resolution to protect access to evidence-based gender-affirming care for transgender and gender-diverse individuals.

As political attacks on gender-affirming care escalate, it is the responsibility of the medical community to speak out in support of evidence-based care. Medical decisions should be made by patients, their relatives and health care providers, not politicians.

…

The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Urological Association, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, the American College of Physicians, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinology, GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ+ Equality and AMA’s Medical Student Section co-sponsored the Society’s resolution.

…

Due to widespread misinformation about medical care for transgender and gender-diverse teens, 18 states have passed laws or instituted policies banning gender-affirming care.

…

These policies do not reflect the research landscape. More than 2,000 scientific studies have examined aspects of gender-affirming care since 1975, including more than 260 studies cited in the Endocrine Society’s Clinical Practice Guideline.

AMA strengthens its policy on protecting access to gender-affirming care | Endocrine Society

You want to look at the science? There are 260 studies cited in the Endocine Society’s Practice Guideline.

We’ve got The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Urological Association, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, the American College of Physicians, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinology, GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ+ Equality and AMA’s Medical Student Section

vs

A single journalist who, with all due respect, has no background in this field, no specialist scientific training, who cherry-picked her sources and in the case of New Zealand, completely misrepresented what the RANZCP is doing. Others have pointed out specific facts she got wrong.

[Larry_Borgia]

He is trolling. And you’re enabling him. I’ve mostly been lurking in this thread, but it used to be a decent resource for breaking news. (Yeah, I know it’s a pit thread) Now it’s just the Magellan show, complete with Hunter Biden and covid 19. And you all have the power to stop it, merely by not replying to him. Remember, when you post your thoughtful replies, often with cites, he’s laughing at you. Use the ignore function if you must, but for God’s sake stop giving him spank material.

Edit: This post is a direct reply to Andy, but it applies to everybody.

[squeegee]

nevermind

[Mighty_Mouse]

Every time the pinniped comes here and takes another dump, legions of intelligent (?) posted can’t resist combing through that pile of excrement going very politely “This is shit because abc, and this is shit because xyz, and this is shit because pqr…”.

Hey people, the sea lion isn’t going to have pearls emerge from his anus next time either. He’s just getting his jollies from you picking through his shit.

[SuntanLotion]

Someone post a pic of a sealion with pearls

[squeegee]

[GIGObuster]

@Banquet_Bear

We’ve got The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Urological Association, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, the American College of Physicians, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinology, GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ+ Equality and AMA’s Medical Student Section

vs

A single journalist who, with all due respect, has no background in this field, no specialist scientific training, who cherry-picked her sources and in the case of New Zealand, completely misrepresented what the RANZCP is doing. Others have pointed out specific facts she got wrong.

Oh, this is typical now for many in the right wing in the US. Misrepresent a bit of the research, and claim that it invalidates what most researchers are doing.

Same old. The same tactic was seen used in the past against Tobacco control, climate science, vaccines, geneticists discouraging the use of science by racialists, biologists that discourage the use of pesticides, etc.