Residential intermittent electrical problem

[Terry_Kennedy]

@gmak1520

I understand your breaker box diagnosis instructions, but this is a little deeper than I plan to venture. I would have assumed that the electrician would’ve done this, or will do it when he returns. I will say that the breaker box is one of those FPE warning units(I think).

If it is indeed a Federal panel, you definitely don’t want to open it and look for yourself - it is very easy to bump the breaker handles when removing the cover, and sometimes the breakers actually fall out of the panel.

Your problem doesn’t sound like the usual “no-trip” FPE fault, but those panels have other problems relating to the way the breaker “stabs” seat in the bus bar. Your electrician should remove the breaker (and probably the adjoining 2 breakers) and inspect the stabs and the bus bar.

I’m surprised that your electrician didn’t comment on the FPE panel. However, some simply aren’t convinced until they see it for themselves - my experience came over 10 years ago when I saw a short on a 20A circuit be ignored by the branch breaker, the main breaker, and the zone feeder breaker. The first breaker in the chain to trip was the floor breaker, a 425A GE which was the first non-FPE one in the path.

[Crafter_Man]

You have an old Federal Pacific panel? Ug. Get the damn thing replaced ASAP.

[md2000]

I recall I had a house that was built in 1962. The main breaker started tripping under heavy loads (about 1990). It took progressively less load to trip as time went by. Eventually an electrician tracked it to a loose connection; the main feed wire (coppper) had deformed over the years. Now it was loose enough that with enough power, it heated up and the breaker popped.

I would double check where the wire attaches to the breaker for that circuit (and maybe where the return neutral attaches.) Are all those connections screwed down tight still? The ol;d aluminum wire (when ti was legal) was more prone to deforming so the connection becomes loose, but copper can too.

The warning about hot connections and fires still applies. Loose connections can great resistance and then heat. ITGOD (In The Good Old Days) a small hand-held transistor radio on AM would detect a bad electrical connection under load by giving off a loud static noise when held near the loose connection.

[gmak1520]

OK, I’ve glanced at a few of your replies/questions since my last post. But,
this note is just an update on my findings since testing with the Gardner
Bender GFI-3501 tester that I got today. Here’s a web reference for this
tester.

http://www.summitsource.com/gb-gardner-bender-gfi3501-outlet-tester-ground-fault-receptacles-overloading-circuit-electrical-neon-lamp-indicates-wiring-analyzer-standard-and-gfci-3prong-outlets-for-proper-wiring-part-gfi3501-p-10002.html

From there you can zoom the image. Mine looks just like the one in the
image. It has three lights, I’ll call 1, 2, 3, from L to R. #1 seems to be very
very dark. #2 and #3 are lighter. Before I go any further, I have to mention
that I’m color blind, but I have my wife to help with that.

Without a lot of detail, I had some difficulty in getting the tester to light when
plugged into an outlet. I guess I wasn’t seating it well. But after some exper-
imentation I was able to see the indicator lights. Every outlet throughout the
house that I tested, responded with #1=off and #2 & #3=on.

As best as I can determine by the instructions, this is considered normal.

Thinking I had the tester operation under control, I proceeded to the faulty
circuit for testing. Knowing that this circuit has been cold for the last 24-36
hours, I expected to not see any lights because no AC power is available.

But… Instead, the outlet(s) for the faulty circuit have again resurrected the
power source, and tested with the same indicator lights as seen from all the
other outlets in the house.

I am really confused… I know that this faulty circuit was dead for at least
24 hours, and now the power had just magically returned. I am beginning
to think that this problem is related to climate/humidity. During the period
in which the faulty circuit’s outlets were dead, we were experiencing more
cold/rainy weather here for the past several days. Beginning last night, the
weather cleared, and today was bright and clear although still cool.

Is this possible that my problem might be related to weather?

I was talking to some of my non-licensed electrician friends today, and
they suggested that I just have the breaker replaced. I see that some
recent comments here strongly suggest that I just replace the entire panel
to comply with the FPE unit warning(s). I learned from my wife that my
neighbor had his FPE panel completely replaced as a condition of sale.
This was done just prior to the 4/2011 sale. My wife also said that the
neighbor said he paid $3K for the complete replacement. Assuming that
is true, $3K sounds a little steep to me, but I really have no idea.

Thanks,

gmak

[gmak1520]

@johnpost

15A receptacles can be used on a 20A circuit and are 20A pass through.

try that circuit with a different breaker.

could be some chance of a break in the cable between breaker and first receptacle that gives intermediate open circuit.

Thanks, please see my 12/27 22:31cst post.

[gmak1520]

@engineer_comp_geek

Internally, there’s no difference between your typical 15 amp and 20 amp outlet. The only difference is the extra slot. Inside, the conductors are all the same size (usually). This is why the NEC allows you to put 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits.
NEC ??
Even though there’s no internal difference, if you use a 20 amp outlet, the NEC assumes you intend to use its extra current carrying capacity, which is why 20 amp outlets have to be installed on their own dedicated circuit.

If it were my house, I would get rid of all of those damned things. I personally wish the NEC didn’t allow them. I have no reason to assume that it will have any bearing at all on your current problem, but I just do not like backstab connectors at all. I think they cause too many problems in the long run. (just my 2 cents)
I agree, in my limited experience. But in their defense, they’ve all been working for over
30 years without problem.
Yep. I don’t think this is actually required by code, but it is commonly done as good practice in almost all new construction. It’s pretty common in older homes for the breaker to get tripped if the microwave happens to be on while the fridge kicks on.

It’s definitely an intermittent connection somewhere. It could be the breaker itself, or it could be in any of the wiring or connections anywhere along the hot or the neutral side for the entire affected circuit.

Are you handy with a voltmeter? Do you know exactly how the electrician was testing the circuits? Was he just looking for voltage or did he actually measure the value? If you know how to use a voltmeter check the actual voltage level at the breaker box, at the affected outlets, and again in both places while the microwave is running (don’t run the microwave empty - put a cup of water in there if nothing else). For this type of problem, a voltmeter will often show a problem where a simple tester won’t.
Yes, I have used a voltmeter, but always for vehicles DC. This is what I thought the
electrician was for.
What type of breaker is it?

I don’t understand unless 20A answers your question? It’s FPE.

Thanks, please see my 12/27 22:31cst post.

[gmak1520]

@Terry_Kennedy

If it is indeed a Federal panel, you definitely don’t want to open it and look for yourself - it is very easy to bump the breaker handles when removing the cover, and sometimes the breakers actually fall out of the panel.

Your problem doesn’t sound like the usual “no-trip” FPE fault, but those panels have other problems relating to the way the breaker “stabs” seat in the bus bar. Your electrician should remove the breaker (and probably the adjoining 2 breakers) and inspect the stabs and the bus bar.

I’m surprised that your electrician didn’t comment on the FPE panel. However, some simply aren’t convinced until they see it for themselves - my experience came over 10 years ago when I saw a short on a 20A circuit be ignored by the branch breaker, the main breaker, and the zone feeder breaker. The first breaker in the chain to trip was the floor breaker, a 425A GE which was the first non-FPE one in the path.

Thanks, please see my 12/27 22:31cst post.

[gmak1520]

@Crafter_Man

You have an old Federal Pacific panel? Ug. Get the damn thing replaced ASAP.

Thanks, please see my 12/27 22:31cst post.

[Terry_Kennedy]

@gmak1520

But… Instead, the outlet(s) for the faulty circuit have again resurrected the power source, and tested with the same indicator lights as seen from all the other outlets in the house.

It might still be dead. Those tester gizmos don’t pull enough current to prove that there isn’t a high-resistance part somewhere in the circiuit. Plug your microwave or toaster into one half of the outlet and run it with the tester in the other half of the outlet.

I was talking to some of my non-licensed electrician friends today, and they suggested that I just have the breaker replaced. I see that some recent comments here strongly suggest that I just replace the entire panel to comply with the FPE unit warning(s). I learned from my wife that my neighbor had his FPE panel completely replaced as a condition of sale. This was done just prior to the 4/2011 sale. My wife also said that the neighbor said he paid $3K for the complete replacement. Assuming that is true, $3K sounds a little steep to me, but I really have no idea.

If it is a FPE panel, chances are that this particular problem is in the bus bar, not the breaker itself. Aftermarket breakers are hideously expensive when you can find them - Home Depot used to carry “UBI Type F” replacements, but a 15A one was like $40. I haven’t seen any there in years.

Regarding the cost of replacing the whole panel, prices can be all over the place. In the best scenario, you have plenty of clearance around the old panel (new ones are larger), it is surface-mounted on a wall, not in a wall, and all of the cables have enough slack to make it to the appropriate places in the new panel. That last one is usually the one that costs the most to resolve - FPE panels date from a time where requirements for clearance inside the panel were a lot looser. Thus, your existing wiring may not reach into the new panel sufficiently. This will usually involve adding a junction box nearby to splice all of the existing wires into new extensions to make it into the new panel.

For example, in this picture you can see three different boxes used to splice extensions.

BTW, I replaced a pair of FPE panels some years ago. One of my first posts here was a link to this picture, which was described as “electrician porn” by another SDMB member.

[gmak1520]

@md2000

I recall I had a house that was built in 1962. The main breaker started tripping under heavy loads (about 1990). It took progressively less load to trip as time went by. Eventually an electrician tracked it to a loose connection; the main feed wire (coppper) had deformed over the years. Now it was loose enough that with enough power, it heated up and the breaker popped.

I would double check where the wire attaches to the breaker for that circuit (and maybe where the return neutral attaches.) Are all those connections screwed down tight still? The ol;d aluminum wire (when ti was legal) was more prone to deforming so the connection becomes loose, but copper can too.

The warning about hot connections and fires still applies. Loose connections can great resistance and then heat. ITGOD (In The Good Old Days) a small hand-held transistor radio on AM would detect a bad electrical connection under load by giving off a loud static noise when held near the loose connection.

I guess I would’ve thought the electrician would check that.

Thanks, please see my 12/27 22:31cst post.

[Rick]

Having lights 2 and 3 lit is normal and proper.
OK the circuit is live now. Do this:
Nuke something in the microwave until it quits.
Unplug the microwave and plug in the tester right away.
You will either get the same result (2&3 lit) or something different. If you get the same result I suspect a fault inside the microwave. If you get a different result report back here.

[TriPolar]

Weather can have an effect in terms of temperature and humidity, and random coincidences.

However, since you have a defective panel, you have to have it changed. It’s not really that big of a job for an electrician. I think you should just put all new breakers in also, but others might disagree. Since you need an electrician in anyway, it would be a good idea to run a new wire to those outlets, and change the outlets also.

Again, IANA electrician.

[gmak1520]

@Terry_Kennedy

It might still be dead. Those tester gizmos don’t pull enough current to prove that there isn’t a high-resistance part somewhere in the circiuit. Plug your microwave or toaster into one half of the outlet and run it with the tester in the other half of the outlet.
I’ll test the microwave tomorrow. But if I can’t reproduce a failure, I can’t call the
electrician.
If it is a FPE panel, chances are that this particular problem is in the bus bar, not the breaker itself. Aftermarket breakers are hideously expensive when you can find them - Home Depot used to carry “UBI Type F” replacements, but a 15A one was like $40. I haven’t seen any there in years.
Like many, I’d rather just fix a broken breaker if that’s the problem. But, I don’t want
a house fire either.
Regarding the cost of replacing the whole panel, prices can be all over the place. In the best scenario, you have plenty of clearance around the old panel (new ones are larger), it is surface-mounted on a wall, not in a wall, and all of the cables have enough slack to make it to the appropriate places in the new panel. That last one is usually the one that costs the most to resolve - FPE panels date from a time where requirements for clearance inside the panel were a lot looser. Thus, your existing wiring may not reach into the new panel sufficiently. This will usually involve adding a junction box nearby to splice all of the existing wires into new extensions to make it into the new panel.
The breaker is mounted flush in sheetrock on a garage wall. Which, I guess means it’s
mounted in the wall. There is plenty of access room if I move all the stuff away.
For example, in this picture you can see three different boxes used to splice extensions.

BTW, I replaced a pair of FPE panels some years ago. One of my first posts here was a link to this picture, which was described as “electrician porn” by another SDMB member.

“electrician porn” - LOL. I guess every profession has its artwork. <g>

[gmak1520]

@Rick

Having lights 2 and 3 lit is normal and proper.
OK the circuit is live now. Do this:
Nuke something in the microwave until it quits.
Unplug the microwave and plug in the tester right away.
You will either get the same result (2&3 lit) or something different. If you get the same result I suspect a fault inside the microwave. If you get a different result report back here.

OK, I think I understand your procedure. You want to probe the circuit during the short
period its gone cold. I might be able to work that fast. I’ll do that and post result. But, it
may be 24 hours or so. I’ve got some spousal responsibilities tomorrow, unless I’m
able to do it tonight. Look for the result.

[Terry_Kennedy]

@gmak1520

I’ll test the microwave tomorrow. But if I can’t reproduce a failure, I can’t call the electrician.>

You could at least call him and say “When you looked at my panel, was it a Federal Pacific? Did you take the cover off and look inside?” If it was a FPE, he should be willing to give you a free quote to replace it.

Note that Federal Pacific isn’t the only brand of older panels that are problematic. It is just the most commonly encountered one, due to the “aggressive price point” that they were marketed to.

[Snnipe_70E]

@gmak1520

OK, I’ve glanced at a few of your replies/questions since my last post. But,
this note is just an update on my findings since testing with the Gardner
Bender GFI-3501 tester that I got today. Here’s a web reference for this
tester.

http://www.summitsource.com/gb-gardner-bender-gfi3501-outlet-tester-ground-fault-receptacles-overloading-circuit-electrical-neon-lamp-indicates-wiring-analyzer-standard-and-gfci-3prong-outlets-for-proper-wiring-part-gfi3501-p-10002.html

From there you can zoom the image. Mine looks just like the one in the
image. It has three lights, I’ll call 1, 2, 3, from L to R. #1 seems to be very
very dark. #2 and #3 are lighter. Before I go any further, I have to mention
that I’m color blind, but I have my wife to help with that.

Without a lot of detail, I had some difficulty in getting the tester to light when
plugged into an outlet. I guess I wasn’t seating it well. But after some exper-
imentation I was able to see the indicator lights. Every outlet throughout the
house that I tested, responded with #1=off and #2 & #3=on.

As best as I can determine by the instructions, this is considered normal.

Thinking I had the tester operation under control, I proceeded to the faulty
circuit for testing. Knowing that this circuit has been cold for the last 24-36
hours, I expected to not see any lights because no AC power is available.

But… Instead, the outlet(s) for the faulty circuit have again resurrected the
power source, and tested with the same indicator lights as seen from all the
other outlets in the house.

I am really confused… I know that this faulty circuit was dead for at least
24 hours, and now the power had just magically returned. I am beginning
to think that this problem is related to climate/humidity. During the period
in which the faulty circuit’s outlets were dead, we were experiencing more
cold/rainy weather here for the past several days. Beginning last night, the
weather cleared, and today was bright and clear although still cool.

Is this possible that my problem might be related to weather?

I was talking to some of my non-licensed electrician friends today, and
they suggested that I just have the breaker replaced. I see that some
recent comments here strongly suggest that I just replace the entire panel
to comply with the FPE unit warning(s). I learned from my wife that my
neighbor had his FPE panel completely replaced as a condition of sale.
This was done just prior to the 4/2011 sale. My wife also said that the
neighbor said he paid $3K for the complete replacement. Assuming that
is true, $3K sounds a little steep to me, but I really have no idea.

Thanks,

gmak

Outlet is dead. You have a hard time plugging in a tester and now outlet is good. This would indiccat problem is outlet or wiring to outlet. As suggested leave tester plugged in and plug in microwave. Zap a cup of water. See if the microwave works and tester stays light. If the microwave does not work and the tester stays lit it may indicate a fault in microwave. But those testers will llight up if there is any voltage even if it is way below working voltage.

Your best bet is a volt meter.

[gmak1520]

@TriPolar

Weather can have an effect in terms of temperature and humidity, and random coincidences.

However, since you have a defective panel, you have to have it changed. It’s not really that big of a job for an electrician. I think you should just put all new breakers in also, but others might disagree. Since you need an electrician in anyway, it would be a good idea to run a new wire to those outlets, and change the outlets also.

Again, IANA electrician.

Well, I guess I thought a new panel included all the breakers necessary? Are you saying that the replacement panel is empty, and must be populated with the breakers of choice/need? What’s IANA?

[gmak1520]

@Terry_Kennedy

You could at least call him and say “When you looked at my panel, was it a Federal Pacific? Did you take the cover off and look inside?” If it was a FPE, he should be willing to give you a free quote to replace it.

Note that Federal Pacific isn’t the only brand of older panels that are problematic. It is just the most commonly encountered one, due to the “aggressive price point” that they were marketed to.

Oh, it’s FPE alright. I just verified that without doubt. No question. The house was built
in 1974.

[gmak1520]

@Snnipe_70E

Outlet is dead. You have a hard time plugging in a tester and now outlet is good. This would indiccat problem is outlet or wiring to outlet. As suggested leave tester plugged in and plug in microwave. Zap a cup of water. See if the microwave works and tester stays light. If the microwave does not work and the tester stays lit it may indicate a fault in microwave. But those testers will llight up if there is any voltage even if it is way below working voltage.

Your best bet is a volt meter.

Well, just to reiterate the tester instructions. It says to unplug the entire outlet before
plugging in the tester. I’m sure that’s a general warning for novice use, but that’s the
drill.

[jz78817]

er, you don’t have aluminum wiring, do you?

and NEC= National Electrical Code.