I hate to say it, but reading thru these posts makes me finally realize that there is no longer anything meaningful that can be done to stop piracy.
Sadly it seems that an excess of civilization can be civilization’s worst enemy.
Certainly we could stop it, we have a military that’s quite good at killing things. But the price (monetary and otherwise) for doing so would be larger than the costs incurred by piracy. That’s a not a new phenomenon, nor is it restricted to those with an “excess” of being civilized.
This is why I object to the meme that claims that liberals are woolly-headed idealists while conservatives are hard-headed pragmatists. The rest of us are trying to come up with solutions that will make the world a better and safer place for everyone including Americans. You’d rather have people suffer in misery and poverty to teach them a lesson even if it drags the rest of the world down with them. If they can’t or won’t get their own shit together, bring in the guns and bombers and kill them till they learn better!
The thinking that people everywhere have the ability to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and that punishing them (whether through action or neglect) is possible without causing unnecessary harm to the rest of us is woolly-headed idealism at its woolliest. It’s not based on pragmatism at all, but on primitive and emotional ideas of what people deserve and a religious worldview that claims that people are responsible for their own suffering. The hardheaded among us realize that sometimes you have to help put out your neighbor’s house when it’s on fire if you don’t want your own house to burn down, even if your neighbor did decide to use oily rags for insulation. In the real world, people don’t always get what they deserve, and when making sure they do is your top moral priority, you often end up hurting good people along with the people you want to punish.
After we pounded the shit out of them with B-17s.
Nobody said “let’s just give Hitler billions of dollars to make Germany a better nation and then it’ll stop its aggression.”
I fail to see how giving aid to Somalia would end the piracy any more than the welfare system has made our American ghettos any safer.
Um, privateers were pirates licensed by the crown to attack enemy shipping.
Besides, how do you know they captured and killed pirates as opposed to just some guys out fishing?
I like the Russian approach to the pirates (ie, shooting them and they claiming that they simply released them). I just wish more nations were willing to act thusly without all this bullshit about “rights” and “morality”.
Or maybe we should just hire the Russians to send the better part of their navy down there and blockade Somalia. I’m sure they could use the money, and we could use not having to spend millions to try petty pirates.
Until they capture a larger ship, that is.
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And that in a nutshell is why navies or armed merchants shouldn’t sink “suspected” pirate ships, since pirates are in the business of taking hostages there’s a very real possibility of innocent people being aboard a pirate or captured ship.
The notion that anyone born in Somalia “deserves” to live in a shit-stinking hellhole is so xenophobic, racist, and classist as to be utterly indefensible, and therefore unworthy of my address. They didn’t choose to be born there anymore than I chose to be born in the USA. Therefore, I can’t take credit for my American citizenship any more than they can be held accountable for theirs in Somalia.
If your definition of paradise is a place where your family isn’t starving and has basic access to medical care, you must be in heaven. Squared. :rolleyes:
I question the motives of anyone whose first go-to answer is to kill pirates instead of helping them elevate beyond their “steal from the passing rich or neighboring warlords or starve” lifestyle. I believe that the motives of a person who believes such are (frequently privilege-blinded) racism and classism. As an aside–it’s difficult, if not impossible, to separate the two -isms here, since Somalia is both primarily black and hellishly poor.
I am not attempting to ascribe overt malice to people who think this way; rather, they are blinded by privilege which leads to ignorance, and both of those things are combatable. However, persisting in holding said belief after all the evidence that there are better alternatives turns you(general) into the willful ignorant, at which point you’re beyond contempt.
With respect, I think you’re pretty definitively mistaken on the racism thing. I may well be wrong, but I find the suggestion that I’m motivated by racism, or some generic me-like person would be motivated by racism, is more than a little distasteful. I suggest the same remedy for piracy that has historically been applied to white pirates, Arab pirates, probably Asian pirates, and so on. These pirates happen to be black - but I suggest trying and hanging them because they are pirates, not because of the color of their skin.
As for classism - well, the Somalis who go into piracy are certainly poor (though they don’t always remain that way). But, if I may ask - since when do rich and well-educated people become pirates? Oh, officers and financiers aside, of course. For that matter, is there any sort of violent theft that isn’t more attractive to the poor than rich? Violent crime is the act of desperate people, and any harsh criminal sanction is going to hit poor people harder than the rich and privileged.
I agree that no one deserves to live in a place like Somalia - the Somalis have been screwed hard by history. And we should absolutely do our damnedest to help these people, both for reasons of humanitarianism and (more important by far) because leaving Somalia as a failed state is not in our national interest. Or anyone else’s national interest, for that matter. But the fact that the Somalis have been screwed does not mean that individual Somalis cannot make the choice, just like people from any other country, to become bad and dangerous people. (Consider all the Somalis who, despite their poverty, turn neither to warlordism nor other predatory acts). We should certainly try to eliminate the conditions that lead Somalis to take up piracy - but that doesn’t mean we need to, or should, tolerate the piracy that exists currently.
Unless we’re willing to incarcerate pirates ourselves, trial and execution at sea provides an option for disabling current pirates and hopefully offering some deterrent to others. Combined with material aid and education on land, perhaps we can thus begin to bring piracy (and other forms of violence) under control. The alternative - to simply accept that occasionally innocent shippers will be boarded and held at AK-47-point by pirates, at least until development aid does its thing - would be an abandonment of duty by the world’s and region’s navies.
Perhaps you still believe I’m mistaken - but I cannot see how this position makes me ignorant. I understand that the majority of Somali pirates were originally fishers, that the fishing industry was destroyed by the collapse of the Somali state and the depredations of foreign fishers, and so on. I do not understand, however, why these historical tragedies mean we should tolerate assaults upon innocent shippers.
Conquest. When the rich hire the poor to perform their thefts for them, and to do the dying.
This post reminds me of those guys who post about how they’d survive the zombie apocalypse in movie threads.
Just out of interest do you have any idea how huge the area we’re talking
about is? Or how many navy ships from several different states are already out there? Why on Earth do you think random groups of people would be more effective then militaries which have actual communications equipment, and high powered surveillance gear, and air support etc?
Wiki has a good list of ships active in the Gulf of Aden currently which anyone who thinks ‘privateering’ would have any effect really needs to look at.
Also where would any privateers get supplies of food, fuel and water from? Not many friendly ports nearby.
There actually seems to be some agreement here, most think that killing in self defence is legitimate - its the problem of captured prisoners that we’re arguing about. Well I’d argue that a far better way of dealing with the system would be to include piracy under the list of areas the ICJ is allowed to prosecute on.
Now that would be difficult for the US as they don’t recognise the ICJ but I’m sure there are ways around that. Passing the prisoners to the British etc.
Yeah, that would be awesome:rolleyes:
I understand there’s a big problem with pirates caught. The wide majority of them are released, because :
-Generally there aren’t enough evidences that they were actually involved in piracy
-No crountry (in particular western countries) is willing to take them in to try them.
Apparently, there are currently discussions with some African countries (I think Kenya or Tanzania, can’t remember) so that they would try them. The Seychelles has apparently agreed to try them providing that another country would be willing to detain them for the duration of their sentences.
It’s unclear to me why it’s so difficult to find a country willing to try pirates (especially since the ships of so many countries have been attacked) , but apparently so it is…
Also, rope is reusable.
No country wants the international scrutiny and attention that would come along with being the one to deal with the pirates, would be my guess.
Nonsense. Establishing some semblance of the rule of law is an essential prerequisite for any attempt to improve the economic situation, for obvious reasons (i.e. nobody in their right mind is going to do the productive work required to fix the place if somebody else can just come along and steal the fruits of their labor).
Strawman alert. Rule of law is establishable without judgment and execution by people who are neither judges nor juries. I am arguing for due process. I am not saying pirates should not be held responsible for their actions. I am saying they shouldn’t be executed by people without the authority to do so, people who may actually/probably be motivated by latent racism and classism and are definitely under duress, and therefore have the least ability to make a good decision.
Additionally, everybody is not going to stop transportation of goods over water because of pirates. The odds of being attacked by pirates on the enormous ocean are very small. And even if the odds significantly increased, companies would start using alternative methods of transportation (air, land, submarine) and likely pass those costs onto customers.
I’m fine with hanging pirates on the spot. As has been gone over in at least on other recent thread, while Somalia gets all the press these days, piracy is worst in Southeast Asian waters.
Fuck 'em. When captured, execute them on the spot. Then carpet-bomb their home ports.
You have an awful lot of nerve accusing others of strawmen when you keep bringing up this “racism and classism” thing again and again. That right there is one of the cheapest strawmen in the book; it has no relation to anyone’s argument; and I also suspect that if bounties were issued on pirates, plenty of poor, black Africans would show up with AKs and RPGs to collect them.