You cut out the key part of my comment. My point was that it makes no sense to say that it’s abusive, inhuman, criminal, etc., to put a child in the position of a superhero. My point is that the illusion of a superhero requires a character that has the mentality of a child with superhuman abilities. In other words, a superhero is, by necessity, a child. The conceit of a superhero story is that the hero is exceptional, possibly in the sense of Nietsche’s Superman. So, the hero does not have to abide by society’s rules; he is merely performing his right function by defying the conventions of society with regard to justice, morality, etc. It makes no difference whether that character literally takes on the appearance of a child or an adult. If the character is already exceptional, compared to normal people, it makes no difference whether that person is over 18.
I agree. however, I don’t see anyone here taking exception with teenage, or even child heroes (though Power Pack was pretty lame)…it’s the dynamic of the adult hero/ kid sidekick relationship.
Taking a child along with you into a deadly situation is NOT a good idea. Doesn’t matter if you’re a superhero, policeman, etc. It is also not a plausible idea in modern society. Children rising to be heroes? We can talk about that. It’s not very far from the classic heroic pattern- and usually progresses in the absence of a parental figure.
[possible hijack]
I remember an episode of the new Justice League animated series, where the Justice League meets the Justice Guild, presumably their golden age counterparts. The modern heroes are dumbfounded at the conventions used by the Guild- taking along a teenager to ‘learn about crime-fighting,’ having the female member of the group make coffee for the men, and at one point, GL John Stewart is referred to as ‘a credit to his people’ by a JG member.
[/possible hijack]
Perhaps readers are just more savvy now, and these older conventions won’t fly? There are better, more realistic ways to insert comic relief into a storyline…and the ‘boy hostage’ thing has become so cliché that I can’t see modern writers avoiding it- because, frankly, it’s the most likely outcome of an adult/child pairing.
**CandidGamera ** – you were almost there, too. But you hedged, dude! That’s okay, that’s why I’m around.
Regarding point #2: Stan did not “in some small way limit stories.” Dude screwed the pooch. A fairly large number of sidekick stories are unique subplots and significant in that, while they parallel and/or complement or even complicate the heroes adventures, they become distinctive over time because ultimately they show the POV and reactions of a learning novice as he becomes part of a larger fraternity.
Additionally, there are facets to a character you just never see unless they are responsible for someone else. Let me briefly return to the idea of super-villain sidekicks, which I happen to think is an intriguing wrinkle to the whole sidekick phenomenon-- one that might have even come about over at Marvel 40 years ago as a counterpoint to DC’s wholesome hero sidekicks if Stan Lee hadn’t banned it outright. I think it was one of John Bryne’s better ideas for him to have Dr. Doom adopt Kristoff and a missed opportunity when Kristoff didn’t continue to learn at the feet of Doom. Yes, yes – I’ve already heard it: “They’d grow up and betray the villains! Super-villains aren’t nurturers!” Well, poppycock and bullchips. A simplistic super-villain might think that way, but if a raging megloegomaniac like Doom decided he wanted a sidekick, there’s no way that sidekick would be a pushover or betray Doom anytime soon. Doom has a way of compelling loyalty.
As far as point #3: Goes, obviously I disagree. I think sidekicks as a traditional facet of superhero culture are definitely one of the reasons DC’s heroes are usually perceived to be more iconic because they ARE heroes and INSPIRE and TRAIN their sidekicks to be heroes, too. The short term benefit of jettisoning sidekicks altogether seemed to be a radical move on Marvel’s part in the 60s but that the persistence of sidekicks at DC and scattered other comic book companies means there’s something to be gained by having them around. I think when someone like Wally West replaces the Flash there’s little backlash because that’s seen as part of a natural evolution – the student becoming the master. But Kyle Rayner assuming the throne of Hal Jordan was met with huge resistence because he was neither John Stewart nor Guy Gardner nor a hand-picked successor by Jordan. Green Arrow could have been replaced by his son OR Arsenal. Sidekicks provide 1) a back-up and 2) built-in succession in case of death that other heroes lack.
Askia, you’re a gentleman. I think we’ll agree to disagree from here. One little thing though.
Actually, many of Alger’s later works were ghost-penned by a young writer named … Edward Stratemeyer. 
Here’s an idea. How about having a maxi-series where Wolverine prepares a series of near-lethal challenges for a dozen or so teenaged Wolvie-wannabees? In each issue, one of them gets rejected and has to join the New Warriors or Power Pack. Only one of them – the last teen standing – gets the honor of becoming Kid Wolverine.
I think it’d sell.
I liked Stonebrow’s post so much I just rewrote vast stretches of it in my own words to bolster my points.
The adult hero/kid sidekick dynamic is actually the strongest of the three to producing good heroes from kid/teenage heroes. You think Johnny Storm would have been an irresponsible goof-off all this time with a mentor? You think Bruce wayne would have let Peter Parker mope and whine about the Bugle’s editorials? You have the benefit of an experienced superhero mentor and teacher right there there tutor you, provide an example of how to behave, how to maximize your potential. I think part of it is that we as a society don’t give enough credit to the idea of apprenticeships as being valuable training experiences.
I agree – taking an untrained, unexperienced, unmotivated, undedicated and immature non-powered unarmed child along with you into a deadly situation is NOT a good idea. Every superhero sidekick I’ve ever seen has extensive combat training and abilities. It is inconceivable in modern society. It is a perfectly plausible norm and conceit in superhero culture. Children rising to be heroes is an ages old tradition. Children rising to be heroes under the tutors of an experienced hero is somehow inconceivable ---- say what now?
[/possible hijack]I remember an episode of the new Justice League animated series, where the Justice League meets the Justice Guild, presumably their golden age counterparts. The modern heroes are dumbfounded at the conventions used by the Guild- taking along a teenager to ‘learn about crime-fighting,’ having the female member of the group make coffee for the men, and at one point, GL John Stewart is referred to as ‘a credit to his people’ by a JG member.[/possible hijack]
Yeah – they poked a lot of fun at that. But really, kid superhero team mascots are one thing – costumed wearing superhero sidekicks who train alongsode a superhero are a whole 'nother animal.
Readers are savvier now and sidekick conventions won’t fly unless objections have been anticipated, addressed and they’ve been updated and retooled. Because as you said, there are better, more realistic ways to insert the multitude of positive story attributes sidekicks bring into a storyline. The ‘boy hostage’ thing has become so cliché that it can and it has been parodied a dozen times. Wasn’t it great how Kenny took out Epoxy-Man or whoever in that issue of ASTRO CITY?
Nonsuch. Goddammit. I really should have deleted that sentence. LOL.
You know – that actually has some possibilties.
No, I’m not kidding.
I’ve seen enough episodes of the CONTENDER and SURVIVOR where I can actually see this working.
Little iffy whether Wolverine is the best mentor for this, but I can sorta see how that might be done with the assistance of Professor X and maybe if it all took place in a remote campsite. But I can totally, totally see Tony Stark selecting a techno-geek intern that way.
“You’re fired, bub!”
The built-in “legacy” feature of sidekicks is handy. I think Marvel’s starting to regret that aspect of it : see Young Avengers.
Basically, while DC’s timeline moves forward, albeit at a glacial pace, Marvel has to be in a perpetual now.
Ridiculous. The only DC icon with a recognizable sidekick is Batman. Superman didn’t have one. Wonder Woman didn’t have one. The Flash may have had one, but nobody outside of DC fans realize it.
The DC heroes tend to be more iconic because they’ve been around longer and pretty much established the entire superhero comic format. Superman and Batman both go back to the 1930s. The iconic Marvel heroes (Hulk, Spiderman, X-Men) only date back to the 60s, with the exception of Captain America.
Sidekicks are lame.
I think that a lot of us that don’t generally like the concept of sidekicks are repelled by the poor character concepts they often have. Before I go on, I have to admit that I have read very few of DC’s “The Amazing So-and-So and Kid Such-and-Such” comics. Just such a title has been enough to make me assume the writer didn’t have much to say to me.
The problem is the sidekick is usually merely a younger clone of the main hero. You had duos like the Flash, an adult who could move very fast, and Kid Flash, a teen who could do the exact same thing. Many of them followed this mode, which seems to sort of water down the sidekick character. The duplication of abilities robs the sidekick of an individual identity as a hero, and makes him just a secondary bit of set dressing for the main character, like a utility belt or an invisible airplane.
I had no trouble with situations like Wolverine taking Shadowcat under his wing. He taught her skills he thought would help her as a hero, but he couldn’t teach her much about exactly how to use her phasing ability in a fight. That power was hers alone, and she needed unique techniques to use it. She was young, and she could use some guidance from a more experienced mutant, but she didn’t rely on her mentor for her entire bag of tricks.
One of the reasons that Batman and Robin are one of the most successful duos out there is not that Robin uses the same utility belt and fighting style that Batman does. It’s that he doesn’t wear the same costume as Batman and doesn’t call himself Batboy. It is the differences between the mentor and mentee that make the relationship interesting, and the lack of individuality that makes many sidekick stories weak.
Well, that’s flattering in a weird sort of way, I guess.
Apples and oranges, really. What you’re discussing (sidekicks) almost always means the degradation of the younger partner. Can i see Spidey and Batman working together? Probably. They’ve done it before. Can i see one as a sidekick? Nope- because it takes something away from Spidey’s character- makes him less than a whole.
Here we must disagree- I don’t see the difference between the two cultures. Isn’t this the same reason ‘leave it to beaver’ would not work on television today? DC has a fantasy/alternate universe, where things seem very much stuck in the period 1950-1980. Sidekicks might seem less out of place in that scenario, but it definitely doesn’t work in Marvel’s ‘real’ world. Your ‘plausible norm’ is only valid if we reject all of Marvel’s efforts to integrate superheroes into the modern day.
Name me a traditional hero that came into his own after an active apprenticeship to another hero. Go back as far as you’d like- Greek, Viking, whatever. Bear in mind your looking for a hero apprenticed to another ACTIVE hero. The only one that pops into my head is the Volsung. All of the others had ‘retired’ mentors. What you’re talking about is a young wannabe going out on patrol with an established, working super hero.
You know why it’s overused? Because you’d have to be one mud-dumb villain to not use it. Unless you assume that a hero views his ‘ward’ as disposable. It’s the same thing as secret identities- of course the arch-enemy will try to discover their adversary’s identity- once you have that, menacing friends, family, etc. can neutralize the hero. A sidekick is basically the hero bringing a family member to every fight. Whatever their raw power, a sidekick almost by definition will not be as proficient as their mentor…that’s a weakness to be exploited. However, plot numbing it might be, a well written villain will have to exploit it occasionally.
Hyperbolic, yes. But I am never ridiculous. Well heck, if you’re going to throw in “recognizable,” sure you’re right: Robin’s the most famous sidekick of all. But relative fame does not negate the partnerships of all the other hero/sidekick duos. That said, simple primacy does account for a lot of the DC heroes iconic status… and the primacy of sidekicks helps, too.
Saltire. I actually agree with you about the redundancy in sidekicks abilities, names and costumes – and that focussing on interrelationships and making sidekicks more independent might have been the way to go. In fact thats’s the exact kind of thing Stan Lee and other Marvel creators could have tweaked with more had they redesigned sidekicks with the same imagination and flair they did heroes. The concept wasn’t useless, it was broken and needed to be fixed.
Stonebrow. I wish you would articulate what this mysterious “something” is that being someone’s sidekick would take away from Spider-Man that would make him less than a whole had he done so at the beginning of his career. Would he be less responsible? Less capable? Less independent? Less opinionated? Less self-sacrificing? I really wish you’d explain how on earth being a younger sidekick is a degradation. What kind of public school did you go to?
The differences in modern society and superhero culture are many. For one thing: disrobing in a public place to intervene in a crime could get you arrested for public indecency. Flying low between skyscrapers in a metropolitan city wearing a mechanical suit with offensive weaponry or rokcet-fueled airship that launches from your skyscraper roof violates FAA regulations and the Patriot Act. Having a child sidekick would make you the target of all sorts of unwelcome tabloid comments and attract the attention from children’s social services and child advocacy groups, as well as the state department of education., for starters. None of which are insurmountable obstacles to writing about superheroes or sidekicks, you’d just have to anticipate these objections and deal with them early.
I can name dozens of heroes that apprenticed to active heroes before coming into their own. I can go a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, and point to the examples of the Jedi/Sith and the one-master-one padawan rule there.
Don’t like space opera? Let’s move closer home. King Arthur and The Knights of The Round Table were all squires who apprenticed to knights before becoming knights themselves. On the villianous side, Morgan Le Fey also learned from Merlin and taught Mordred.
In some interpretations of Robin Hood’s Merry Band, Much the Miller’s son is only twelve.
Maybe we can go east. Much wuxia is predecated on Shoalin master monks teaching students kung fu.
Don’t like that either? Okay, how about novice and seasoned samurai?
Delve far enough an you’ll get into many historical examples of ancient pederasty that makes you take a second look at all sidekick relationships.
Not that there’s anything WRONG with that.
Closer to home, Huckleberry Finn was Nigger Jim’s sidekick-- although it might have been the other way around, given that Huckleberry’s skin color granted him social privileges Jim never had while he was in America.
I’ve already mentioned Bucky, Toro, Robin, Kid Flash, Batgirl, Supergirl, Wonder Girl, the younger Marvels and the rest
Askia
Re Doctor Strange- You’re wrong for two reasons. #1 Strange was an established surgeon before he ever studied magic. Why bother getting a kid as an apprentice when you became Master Of The Mystic Arts after having started studying at (I’m guessing here) 30+ ? #2 He has had an apprentice- Rint Rah, a greenish minotaur guy from another dimension.
Re Beta Ray Bill- By Odin’s beard hast thou gone mad? Why would an entire species entrust their welfare to a child? Bill was the sole protector of his people and the only thing standing between them and a horde of demons. Besides which, Bill was the only candidate who didn’t die or go insane after being transferred to the android body. Yeah, a kid would really be able to survive that process
Re Iron Man- Why give him a kid sidekick when he already had Jim Rhodes?
Re The Human Torch- You say he’d be more level headed with an experienced mentor. I say he had three-Reed, Sue, and Ben
Re Spider Man-Um, find yourself the issue with the Amazing Spider Kid. I prefer my friendly neighborhood Spider Man sidekick free.
Re Villains with sidekicks- OTTOMH Modred has taken at least two apprentice. While with the Darkhold Redeemers, he began teaching Jinx, a young boy born with mystical abilities. At another point, he took another villain (can’t remember his name-red skin, animal tattoos he could bring to life) as an apprentice. The Red Skull tried very hard to mold his daughter in his image, making her into the supervillianess Mother Night. Belasco, the demon lord of limbo, spent literally years training Ilyana Rasputin as his apprentice. I know Baron Zemo, the villain who killed the original Bucky, was succeeded by his son. I’m not sure whether the elder Zemo ever purposefully trained his soon as a supervillain. Black Tom took his neice, Siren, under his wing for villain training. When Gog kidnaps Superman’s son, his plan is to raise the boy as his own and train him as an apprentice.
BTW Re Punisher- He did have a partner (don’t know if he still does). Geek hacker by the nom de whatever of Microchip
DocCathode. You’re wrong for saying I’m wrong when your counterpoints are so painfully wrong. But you know what? You’re forgiven. The villain apprentice/sidekick information you’ve presented is so compelling. Much appreciated. Thankewvermuch.
Re: Dr. Strange - You made a good point: Dr. Strange didn’t need an apprentice at the start of his career. But it’s something that should have happened in the last 10 years. His character is so freaking dull. It would be a better selling point in these days of Harry Pottermania for Dr. Strange to have a child apprentice to tutor in the ways of the mystic arts, and probably best if it’s a child from Earth… but it could be an elfling or Asgardian child or something. Aliens – not so much.
Re: Beta Ray Bill. Don’t speak that pigdin Elizabethean English at me, knave. Preternaturally powerful kids who are the last hope of desperate people are a staple of fantasy-- for good and for evil. Ever heard of Ender’s Game? The Golden Child? Rosemary’s Baby? The Omen? Good Omens? Firestarter? Aanakin Skywalker? For Og’s sakes, Doc – have you never heard of Kal-El? The right child could apprentice Thor or stood in for Beta Ray Bill. One of the most powerful characters in the Marvel universe is the psi-inhibited Franklin Richards. I’m not nuts – you’re nuts for doubting me. Gimme your sammich.
Re: Iron Man. Why not make Jim Rhodes an incredibly gifted kid?
Re: Human Torch. Nuh-uh. Reed is his caring brother-in-law he can’t relate to, Ben is his annoying friend he prefers to torture and abuse. As for Sue – HA. No chance. You ever try and “mentor” your imbecilic kid brother? I’ve got three younger siblings and it just doesn’t work that way, dude. I’m not saying he didn’t have level-headed role models – just no one in THIS GROUP he’d actually listen to. The original Human Torch – maybe. Another choice --Steranko Nick Fury.
Re: Spider-Man. I never said I wanted to give Spider-Man a sidekick – I just questioned why he couldn’t have been someone’s sidekick, what it would have detracted from his character. Still waitng for an answer. I dunno how these straw men get started.
Re: Punisher. After 30 odd-years of watching Punisher on never-ending murderous killing sprees – I’d like to see a paternal side to the character… just for the contrast, just for a change of pace… in between his never-ending murderous killing sprees. It worked for Leon: The Professional. It worked for Lone Wolf and Cub. It worked for John Connor in Terminator II: Judgment Day. Could work for Frank.
The fun of Spider-Man’s early comics was to see how he dealt with being a teenaged super-hero all by himself. He was always over his head in problems in his crimefighting and civilian life. Seeing this nerdy, introverted teenager with super powers trying to come out on top was the point of the comic. Character-wise, he was also paranoid about getting too close with other heroes, never wanting to reveal too much about his identity in case it would some how get out and hurt Aunt May. Giving him help in a mentor would have lessened the drama and humor of his story. More importantly, his story was strong enough by itself. He didn’t need to be a sidekick to make a satisfying (and hugely successful commercial and crtical) comic book read.
No, you’re painfully wrong for saying my counterpoints are wrong. You’re attempted rebuttals are pathetic
You completely misunderstood me. Strange only started studying magic at 30. Why would he want an apprentice younger than that? Why would he want to add all the problems of childrearing to his life when he could get a 25 year-old?
So he should get a child apprentice based purely on atttempt to cash in on a trend and increase sales figures?
Heard of it yes, bothered to read it, no.
Still haven’t gotten around to reading Good Omens either. The rest you cite are bad comparisons. All those children were born with great power. Beta Ray Bill’s power was given to him by a group of scientists. It would be like the scientists on the Super Soldier project picking a toddler.
You’re not just nuts, you’re dead wrong. Again, Franklin was born with his abilities. Bill was carefully chosen and given abilities. You don’t deserve my sammich, nor any other.
Why bother to introduce a new character when the role of sidekick was already filled?
I disagree. Johnny may not understand him when Reed talks about science, he may have issues with Ben, he might not always listen to Sue. But, when they talk about superhero strategies, how to fight crime etc he does listen. He may not come to them with personal problems, but he comes to them for advice on superhero stuff.
Sidekick to who? His way of doing things wouldn’t have meshed with any older hero I can think of.
I don’t think Frank Castle is capable of caring for another human being anymore. All the tender, loving parts of him are dead. If he did find some kid to care about, why in the hell would he drag them along into the sordid and dangerous world of his crusade?
Carrying a baby along did work for Nomad. But, Nomad has things like hope, love and the emotional capacity to retire and live a normal life.
ZeroGyro – I agree his story was strong enough on his own. I doubt whether it would have automatically lessened the humor and drama if he had a mantor, though. After all he did have a mentor in Aunt May – he just didn’t have a superhero mentor. It might have worked out if he had a mentor he’d maybe only occassionally teamed up with, took advice from, yet refused to divulge his secret ID to – a purely professioal relationship. That’s another wrinkle in the formula.
DocCathode. My attempted rebuttals are pathetic?? Why… you… scrawny little…
Atchilly, baby, they’s just jokes.
Re: Dr. Strange (again) Well, when I think of Tim Hunter, Harry Potter and other magic users apprenticed or taught at a young age it’s because they need the time for growth and maturity to fully master their awesome powers. Remember how Yoda initially didn’t want to train Luke because he was too old? Kinda the same deal, different saga. As for getting “a child apprentice based purely on atttempt to cash in on a trend and increase sales figures?” – uh, yeah. Since when has cashing in on a trend ever been bad for business as long as the attempt isn’t entirely derivative and is well-written product?
Re: Beta Ray Bill. (redux) I’m kind of scratching my head at the actual, practical difference from a storytelling position between being a kid born with power with the expectations to use that power for good/evil on behalf of your people and being an adult guinea pig artificially given great power for good/evil on behalf of your people that makes my examples so wrong. But you seem convinced I’m somehow wrong… so… I say we’ll table this discussion, and you should read up on Good Omens for a laugh, Ender’s Game for the drama, then get back to me when you’ve climbed up closer to my level of expertise and sublime wisdom.
Re: Iron Man (deux) Now you misunderstand me: Jim Rhoades should have been a brilliant teen sidekick when the character was introduced.
Re: Human Torch. Unlike every other superteam I’ve seen, I see very little crimefighting strategy in the way how the FF operates, including giving advice to Johnny Storm he actually takes.
Re: Spider-Man: Off-hand? I’m stuck, too. If “older hero” included police, there was Captain Stacy.
Re: The Punisher. You saw Leon: The Professional, right? Leon is basically Frank Castle. Had Matilida’s family been wiped out and she came knocking on his door, I could see the movie unfolding much the same way, with Frank Castle very grudgingly taking her under his wing and maybe even surprisng himself the parts of his soul he thought dead weren’t quite so inert.
Okay. Bed.