Resolved: Unequivocal Opposition To Torture Is Logically Inconsistent.

Responding to the torrents of psychic despair evoked by the conspicuous lack of a brand new torture thread today, I have bravely stepped into the breach to discuss what (I hope) is a new perspective on this very, very tired subject. In this post, I argue that an unequivocal opposition to torture is logically untenable for all but the most committed pacifists. Here it is.

Premise 1: The pacifism of Gandhi, while useful in limited situations and requiring considerable bravery, is not a universally applicable response to all acts of aggression. Consider Gandhi’s plan to counter the anti-Semetic barbarism of the Nazis: He contended that the Jews should have committed mass suicide because this would have "Aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler’s violence.” Were Gandhi alive today, I would be inclined to ask him what he felt an international community of pacifists should have done once it had grown “aroused”? Committed mass suicide as well?

No, there is no question that absolutist pacifism would ultimately leave those who practise it at the mercy of the world’s thugs. In certain situations, it is necessary to wage defensive war.

Premise 2: The war against Al-Qaeda & the Taliban immediately following 9/11 was just such a war. I am aware that this is a slightly contentious point among some dopers. Nonetheless, I feel I am safely in the majority when I say that, following 9/11, America had good, defensive reasons for rooting out Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and sweeping away the openly hostile and obstructionist Taliban regime in the process. I may not necessarily agree with how this war was waged, but I do feel Bush was right to declare it.

Premise 3: The waging of wars necessarily involves collateral damage. That is to say, whenever we go to war, we do so knowing with absolute certainty that our bombs will kill, maim, widow, and orphan an unknowable number of innocent men, women, and children. While our bombs are becoming ever more sophisticated, they’re not yet smart enough to spread their shrapnel selectively. In the case of the Afghanistan war, the American people rapidly reached a general consensus that a certain amount of collateral damage was a regrettable, but unavoidable consequence of our justifiable decision to destroy Al-Qaeda & the Taliban. By and large, this consensus holds true today.

Conclusion: If we are willing to indiscriminately kill innocents to find Osama Bin Laden, we also ought to be willing to tolerate the torture of those whose guilt may be undetermined but who we have good reason to believe may know Bin Laden’s location. In other words, if we are willing to accept collateral damage in pursuit of a particular foreign policy objective, it is logically inconsistent to object to the selective use of torture in pursuit of that same objective as the former is far worse than the latter.

This is, I’m aware, a contentious statement, and I would like to briefly field some easily foreseeable objections to it.

The first reasonable objection to the idea that selective use of torture may be justified during the conduct of a Just war is that we may torture innocent people by mistake. This is undeniably true, of course, but this objection merely highlights the incongruity I believe I see in so many people’s principled opposition to torture. There were no children at Guantanamo Bay; and it seems ridiculous to oppose the torture of a man on the grounds he may be innocent while tacitly turning a blind eye to the possibility that a stray missile may just as easily kill him and his entire innocent family while they sleep. We cannot logically justify wholesale opposition to torture for fear of ensnaring innocent men while simultaneously condoning, albeit with a heavy heart, the bombing of those same innocent men.

The second reasonable objection is that torture is more objectionable than collateral damage because it is more pre-meditated and more visceral. Some people feel an instinctive revulsion to torture that they simply cannot summon when hearing that a score of innocents were obliterated in a bombing raid. This is understandable, but it is ultimately nothing more than a failure of imagination.

I believe that the human mind is poorly equipped to instinctively appreciate the consequences of large scale violence. Tell a man his uncle flew a bombing mission over Germany WWII and he’d likely feel some measure of pride. Tell him he raped and strangled his wife and daughter and he’d surely feel a very different emotion. This, in spite of the fact that his uncle doubtlessly killed many more people during his mission, and that they surely would have died in equally horrible ways.

Similarly, some people seem ill-equipped to genuinely understand just how much more carnage is caused in the dropping of a single bomb than is caused in a whole slew of torture sessions. Lest I sound superior in any way, I readily admit that I am one of those people. I am making this argument in spite of the instinctive revulsion I feel when I think of torture, a revulsion I cannot summon in as much force when I think about collateral damage. Again, the bottom line remains the same: If you oppose torture on the grounds that it is too brutal, you should also oppose the practise of waging defensive war. If you can live with the idea of collateral damage in the course of waging war, you should also be able to live with torture carried out in the course of that same war.

A third principled objection to torture during warfare is that the confessions elicited are notoriously unreliable. This is true, yet given the foregoing this objection seems to lack its usual oomph. The chance that any particular torture session would yield valuable information need only equal the chances that any one bomb dropped on Kabul would transform the war in Afghanistan. What are the odds that bomb number 258 dropped on Kabul would elicit the immediate capitulation of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda? They’d have to be very slim.

Enter Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the man for whom, judging by his resume, ticking time-bomb scenario’s were invented and the man who, not coincidentally, American interrogators waterboarded over 180 times. Given the carnage caused by our bombs, the convulsions of conscience experienced by our legislators when details of his treatment emerged seem rather incongruous. If collateral damage is acceptable in the conduct of a Just war, then so is the torture of men like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, provided that his torture is carried out in pursuit of the same objectives that we feel gives us license to drop bombs.

Where should we draw the line? It seems to me that if we are unwilling to torture certain criminals in our custody, we should be unwilling to wage war at all. If you believe (as per premise 1), that some wars (and consequently some collateral damage, as per premise 3) are Just and necessary, it is logically inconsistent for you to oppose torture earnestly carried out with the aim of helping win that same conflict, as the former takes a much greater toll than the latter.

Sorry…doesn’t work like that.

There are provably better methods to gain useful information than by torture. What’s more, the use of torture closes the more reliable avenues of gaining useful information.

We have done this before on this Board and at length. It is not a matter of opinion. It has been noted by numerous interrogation experts and even Napoleon recognized torture as useless. Look up the older threads. Cite after cite after cite from reliable sources that have experience in all this. There are almost none for the opposing side suggesting torture works to gain actionable intelligence.

With that everything else unravels in your post. Ignoring the moral aspects there is just NO reason to do it because it is counterproductive. Worse, it has been shown that using torture actually harms more than it helps by making your enemy more committed to defeating you. Read up on the French experience in Algeria. Their use of torture there, much as you would have it, arguably was a primary cause of the French losing there (not to mention it was at the root of an attempted coup by some of the military and almost tossed France into another civil war).

Actually there is ONE use that torture excels at and that is gaining false confessions. Of course I have never seen much use for that but maybe I am missing something there.

I don’t see where you’re getting from “a certain amount of collateral damage is acceptable and unavoidable” to “any atrocity of any kind is justified if there’s a war on”.

To me, it’s pretty clear that for an atrocity to be justified it must have reasably expected gains that outweight the atocityishness of it all, or at least have among the best benefit/atrocity ratios of the options available. Until you or somebody else can make a case that this is true for torture, then the fact that war is hell doesn’t justify torture in the slightest.

You’re trying to lay out your argument very formally and so (I assume) you are trying to be fairly rigorous. I want to help you with that.

You’re trying to argue that

P. It’s okay if there is collateral damage in a war

is logically inconsistent with

Q. We should never, ever torture for any reason.

To argue that they’re inconsistent is to argue that together they imply a contradiction. A contradiction is a statemt of the form “R & not-R”, where “R” here is a proposition, i.e., something you can represent with a declarative sentence.

What’s your candidate for “R”, and how do P and Q together imply both R and not-R?

No. But it freed India and led to many learning about this heroic man.

That’s a no-brainer. There was an international coalition to support the US too.
Of course once the invasion if Iraq and the torture at Abu Graib happened, all the support melted away.

There was never any intention to destroy Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.
In case you don’t know, heroin production in Afghanistan has massively increased since the US invaded.

There was little effort to find Bin Laden.
Anyway it’s ridiculous to suggest that killing a lot of innocents would somehow find him.

Torture is:

  • barbaric
  • ineffective
  • a major recruiter for terrorism (look what the Americans did to my cousin!)
  • a way to lose allies (these Americans stand for truth, justice … and torture)

It’s not a just war if you use torture.

Of course there were children at Guantanamo Bay.

Are you one of those spineless cowardly traitors who refuse to torture children? :mad: :smack:
Are you not aware that it is easily the most effective way to get suspects to talk.
Skin the children slowly, right in front of the parent. Prolong the agony for days.
They’ll talk! :smiley:

It seems ridiculous to oppose the terrorist bombing of Americans on the grounds they may be innocent.

If there were bombs that could be dropped and programmed to selectively hurt the bad guys and spare the non-bad guys, I believe it would be a moral imperative to use that bomb in every circumstance possible.

Because we do not have the technology to choose who exactly should be killed from 25,000 feet, does not mean that we do not have a choice on whether to torture a suspect or not.

Not wanting to kill innocent people, but harming them while attacking a legitimate target under hostile circumstances, is substantially different than intending to harm someone who is under submission and your complete control.

Based on his argument form I’d say that his R is most likely “It is not the case that we should never, ever torture for any reason.” I just don’t think he can get there from his premises, because he doesn’t get around to telling us why torture cannot be excluded from the set of acceptable acts that have ‘collateral damage’. (The fact that there are acceptable acts with ‘collateral damage’ doesn’t cut it.)

Collateral damage is so-called because we know that in the heat of war some innocents will be killed accidentally. However, it is a far different thing to hit a hospital by accident than to deliberately target it.

Torture is deliberate. During a battle, an enemy might be wounded in a way that causes far more pain than any torture. Causing that pain is not deliberate, and is different from causing the pain deliberately, especially when he isn’t trying to kill you.

That torture doesn’t even work is just icing on the cake.

I agree. But what are the odds that any one bomb will prove decisive in the fight against Al-Qaeda or the Taliban? I’d imagine they would be extremely small indeed. Yet the odds of that same bomb killing at least one or two innocent civilians are extremely high. Given that dropping bombs is always so much more harmful to innocents than committing acts of torture, and given that we generally have no issues dropping bombs on enemy lands during a Just war, it follows that we should have no issues about torturing a suspect in the course of that same war provided that the odds of it eliciting a valuable confession are equal or greater than the odds of that one bomb proving decisive. Since these odds are so vanishingly small, feel free to imagine torture as being as unreliable as you like.

You could say the same thing about aerial bombardment. Someone with valuable information would be far less willing to discuss it with us if we’ve just blown up his house. We know this in advance yet we choose to employ such tactics anyway.

Again, you could say the same thing about aerial bombardment, yet we still do it.

Okay, where would you suggest I start?

My argument is based on the obvious and self-evident premise that if you judge the practise of sustained aerial bombardment by the same standard people judge torture, you will see that the former is far worse than the latter. We may torture, but we don’t torture little children. Our bombs don’t discriminate between children or adults. Torture victims may recover from their ordeals, whereas the victims of collateral damage are, almost by definition, killed or crippled. Torture turns people against us. So it is when our bombs hit schools, hospitals, embassies, and residential areas, only in far greater numbers since the damage caused is so much greater. We may torture the wrong people. Our bombs definitely do kill the wrong people. Torture may be ineffective. No one bomb can be said to effect anything more than utter carnage. By every available metric, torture is more moral and at least just as effective than the practise of dropping a bomb during the course of a military campaign.

I can only conclude that it is logically inconsistent to oppose torture while turning a blind eye to aerial bombardment.

What gains can be made from the dropping of any one bomb during the course of a campaign?

Nope, you will have to explain how it is that in the case of Iraq torture was an important element that gave the Bush administration a justification to bomb in Iraq. (The torture information obtained that said that Saddam was in cahoots with Al-qaeda was **FALSE **BTW)

Torture was more immoral because it caused the bombing.

(Incidentally I also think that most if not all bombings are immoral, so I do not see why this is supposed to be a choice)

When we carpet-bomb an area, (and assuming we’re running a ‘just war’, which seems to be included in your premises) we presumably have determined that doing so is (to the best of our knowledge) among the best and most efficient ways of accomplishing our objective with the least collateral damage, whatever those ends may be. If it isn’t, then it’s not moral to do it - and presuming a just war, presumably we wouldn’t do it then.

I’m not seeing the contradiction.

Lets get extreme. You can drop a single nuke and blow the living crap out of a city with extreme collateral damage and, thereby, completely cow your enemy and break their fighting spirit and end the war in one fell swoop.

Would this be moral? People will disagree - but the debate will boil down to was the act worth the cost - as in, when we did it were we reasonably confident that it would achieve an end that justified the damage. If you think the end of the war was a likely result, and the costs of the war continuing would have been worse than the damage, then you’d assess it as moral. If not, you wouldn’t.

But if you knew it wasn’t the most effective and likely-successful approach over ones that would produce the same results for less damage, there would be no debate. So it is with torture.

Not quite. I am arguing:

P. In Just war, collateral damage accepted as inevitable, though it causes innocent people enormous harm and the efficacy of any one bomb is dubious at best.

is logically inconsistent with.

Q. We should never, ever torture, even during the conduct of a Just war because it causes innocent people enormous harm and the efficacy of any one torture session is dubious at best.

I don’t do formal logic but I guess R & not-R would be something like “Collateral damage is acceptable in spite of the harm that it does while torture is viewed as unacceptable because of the harm that it does, despite the fact that the former causes more harm than the latter”.

We choose to drop bombs in the first place. If you’re opposed to torture because of the harm that it causes, you should also be opposed to aerial bombardment in the first place.

I take it you believe that there is a distinction because the former is accidental harm while the latter is deliberate harm? May I ask, how accidental can collateral damage be when we know we will inflict it no matter how carefully we target our weapons? I would say the harming of civilians is both regrettable and deliberate, but is ignored in pursuit of the greater good we believe will come from launching the bomb. You can make a very similar case for torture. Our permissive attitude toward collateral damage gives us no recourse to oppose a torturer who genuinely believes his suspect will yield valuable information under extreme duress.

True, but I did explicitly state that non-violent resistance is suitable for some situations.

I’m not sure what point you’re making here, nor how your cite supports it. Why does the fact that heroin production has increased post 9/11 justify your contention that we had no intention of ousting the Taliban or defeating Al-Qaeda?

:boggles:

You might want to re-read my statement and rethink this.

Similarly, aerial bombardment is:

  • barbaric.
  • ineffective.
  • a major recruiter for terrorism (look what the Americans did to my house. My children never stood a chance).
  • a way to lose allies (these American “Smart” missiles just took out an orphanage, and to what avail?)

Given that the latter takes such a higher toll than the former, how can you reconcile your tacit condoning of the latter with your overt opposition to the former? You’re condemning the wrong thing.

Actually, the legal and philosophical definition of a Just War doesn’t mention torture at all. Nor is it ruled out as a legitimate practise.

I stand corrected: There were no infants at Guantanamo Bay.

As I said to Ravenman, how accidental can Collateral damage be if we can count on it? It’s an undesirable consequence, but far from accidental. Besides, I doubt the innocent men, women, and children eviscerated by shrapnel from our bombs really care whether or not we meant to hurt them.

During that same battle, however, an enemy might be wounded by a sniper with just as much premeditation as that displayed by a torturer. Yet we would regard the sniper in a very different light to the torturer. It is my contention that an objection to torture on the grounds that it is pre-meditated would necessarily require concomitant objections to numerous commonly accepted warfare practises. By not opposing all of them, one betrays an inconsistency in one’s own position.

The contradiction arises because the same reasoning can be used to justify torturing somebody. If all other avenues have been exhausted, and if we determine that torture might elicit results, on what possible grounds can we object given the relative ineffectiveness of any one bombing campaign during the course of a war, and given the far more drastic negative effects on innocent people during bombing?

To clarify, I am adamant that torture would only be justifiable during a Just war if it was reserved as a last resort.

The deployment of indiscrimate attacks is every bit as evil as torture.
Collateral damage may be inadvertant, but if it is the result of not even attempting to hit a valid target, then it is just as wrong as torture.
Since I do not accept the value of indiscriminate slaughter, I declaine to be drawn into your acceptance of torture.

. . .

Given that I do not accept your initial conclusion, based on what I consider to be faulty premises, I see no reason to concede that this argument is weak. However, you have left out much that accompanies this argument against torture: Not only is it notoriously unreliable, it also is a reliable as a way to harden the opposition, to recruit people to one’s opponents’ cause, and it harms one’s own side in destroying the commitment to the ethical treatment of humans.

You’re not arguing; you’re just running your mouth for whatever purpose.

Because that scenario simply does not occur. It’s sort of an inverse strawman, very much like saying “Going around shooting random americans in the face is justified, because the case might arise where everyone I happen to shoot is a terrorist!”

If I say that your one theoretical scenario wherin torture might be justified never happens, then I’m perfectly consistent in saying that torture is never justified.

And I am adamant in saying that in every situation where torture retains even a slim chance of saving the day, numerous other options that are better in every way will inevitably also remain viable. And thus torture cannot be the last resort.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. I know full well that we do not target our missiles indiscriminately. However, our missiles do kill indiscriminately. We may be able to justify dropping a missile on a city block known to be infested with terrorists, but the bomb will take out everyone, regardless of their age or affiliation. To that extent are our weapons indiscriminate.

I would argue that the same can be said of aerial bombardment, only to a greater degree since the harm caused is so much more extensive, and the chances of innocent people being killed is so much higher.

Y’know, it really pisses me off when right-wingers accuse liberals of moral relativism, when people seriously make arguments like this. Torture is bad. Torture is in fact always and absolutely bad. Unequivocal opposition to something which is absolutely bad is unequivocally good. It’s really quite simple.

A) I’m not right-wing.
B) I agree torture is always bad. My point is that an unequivocal opposition to torture in all cases is inconsistent with the permissive attitude we commonly hold toward other violent acts which are arguably always worse.

Your point and arguments in favor of it are demonstrably flawed. For one thing, collateral damage and deliberate damage are not the same thing.