My timeline is fine. Only if large scale animal domestication began after or at the same time as the biblical quote would my point be anachronistic.
You are neglecting to consider the amount of time necessary for the germs to evolve. Even simple organisms do not change quickly without drastic stimuli.
The germs continue to evolve to this very day. It is only modern medicine that keeps them from becoming chronic disasters.
The point again is that medicine did greatly advance the life expectancy of those with access to it. Perhaps kids did have more respect for elders before people started living long enough for the youngsters to realize that the oldsters were as full of shit as they were.
Which time period are you referring to as having had the shorter life spans? When do you believe that large scale animal domestication began? How long did it take the germs to evolve?
In the statement of mine that you quoted my reasoning was faulty. I apologise for the confusion.
I believe that lifespans were shortened by disease right up until the time that medicine began to extend lives. I would think that this happened around the begining of this century. I thought that this was what you were referring to as “the olden days”.
Here are Jared Diamond’s estimates by species ( all BCE ):
Dogs - 10,000
Sheep, pigs, goats - 8,000
Cattle - 6,000
Horses and donkeys - 4,000
camels ( both species ) - 2,500
All of these, with the exception of camels, were tamed before biblical times.
Evolve into what?
The germs are still evolving. If you are asking when they became deadly then I am not sure. I recall that a devastating plague occured in the reign of Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius in the 2nd century, so certainly no later than this.
More likely within a few years, if not before, of any host species. Because the life cycle of such organisms is so short it gives them a chance for a much higher mutation rate. We’ve no doubt had deadly germs, for as long as we’ve been human.
I wouldn’t exactly call modern medicine an our salvation either. Unfortunately it is to blame for many of the new strains of germs today. This is due to the casual way antibiotics have often been treated (both by patient and doctor) thanks to this many strains have become immune.
My question concerns a distinction that you seem to be making between biblical times, in which the lifespan seems to have been about 70 years, and subsequent generations in which you are claiming that lifespans became shorter. What took place in that interval? (BTW, the Book of Psalms, from which the quote was taken, was written aproximately 1000 B.C.).
My question about germs evolving what directed at your earlier statement to that effect.
I am sorry that this turned into a hijack, IzzyR.
I just didn’t think that you should dismiss the effect of having more elders around.
I think that this might be a reason for the lack of respect.
I also tend to agree that there is something to the 1st point of your OP.
My position is this:
As germs evolved to become more efficient parasites of humans, life expectancy shortened. Even surviving a plague could leave a person’s physique weakened; shortening their life. Also diet improved in this century, as witnessed by the fact that Americans are now taller on average. This also aids longevity. People do live longer today than 100 years ago.
My impression from reading GG&S is that there are elements of truth in what both IzzyR and 2sense are saying, although looking at the big picture I think IzzyR’s point is the more significant.
According to Diamond, the life span of a hunter-gather who survived infancy would be greater than the lifespan of a farmer, not only because of the disease issue, but also because the hunter-gather would generally have a more varied and nutritious diet. So 2sense is correct in that agriculture did shorten lifespan before the age of modern medicine and better nutrition.
However, this difference in lifespans would not be so great as to invalidate IzzyR’s point- as a general rule those who survived infancy would still have a decent shot at making 70 whether they were farmers or foragers. The only exception would be during those relatively short intervals when a new pathogen was introduced to a community with no previous exposure to it. In most other cases, when one reads that the average life span was 35 years, the simplification closer to the truth would be that half died before age one and half died at 70, rather than that most people died at age 35.
