Respond to Rania Kashi's e-mail

[yojimbo]

*Originally posted by december
The point is that she represents the Iraqi people because of her background, even though she was never there. Her statement shows that Iraqis very much wants to see Saddam overthrown. We should not hesitate to attack Saddam for the sake of the Iraqi people. This war would be their liberation.

So if I go and find the most rabid anti-Jewish American website and find a US citizen spouting some bile. Can I post it here and say the racist “represents” US people and use it to show how all Americans are racist?
Propaganda. Pure and simply. I heard plenty of Iraqis on TV news saying the opposite. Neither is the “opinion” of the Iraqi people.

[yojimbo]

Having said that.

No doubt there are some abroad who support Saddam, others who are neutral and others who want to see him go but do not think an American war is the way to do it. But what the majority think, in the words of one careful student of Iraqi opinion, is that “military action is the price that has to be paid for the removal of the regime, and this is also the view of most Iraqis in the country”. Iraqis at home, leaving aside those so complicit with the regime that they fear change will bring disaster and death to their families, are “worried about bombs raining down on them but things are so bad that they will take that prospect on… People in Iraq are waiting for the strike to happen”.

From One in six Iraqis are in exile, and they want this war

[RandySpears]

And now of course you’ll tell me that Amir Tehari represents the views of the Iranian People?

I tried to follow your link, it required a membership. A search on Amir Tehari comes up with three broken or missing links, the first of these refering to the website “www.counterrevolution.net” and a column named “View from the Right - The passing scene and what it’s about viewed from the antimodern politically incorrect Right”.

So, about citing individuals, supposed to represent “some people”: you could just as well write an editorial expressing your own opinions. Because i am sure that you agree that there are enough exile-iraqis and exile-iranians to produce a guy that’ll make just about any point you or i would wan’t to make.

Actually, this point is discussed at length above.

Here is a link to a statement by Iraqis in Exile against War http://www.notinournames.org.uk/exiles/.

But, I do not claim that these people represent the views of the Iraqi people. I am quite sure there has been Iraqi-exile groups in favor of war to. Still, i believe, it lies upon the US administration (and you?), in claiming to help the iraqi people, to support that claim with more than that “person so-and-so states that so-and-so”.

[RandySpears]

**yojimbo[/]:

I am a bit suprised that you, having made your point about propaganda, put your faith in “the words of one careful [unnamed!] student of Iraqi opinion”.

Who is this person? What particular insight does He/She have into the opinions of average-Joe exile-iraqi?

These are strange times we live in when a paper like the Guardian cites in this manner without even submitting some (anomymity-preserving) info on why this person is an authority…

[SentientMeat]

One in six Iraqis are in exile, and they want this war

Quite. You don’t get shot or bombed in exile.

I do happen to agree that overall, intervention would be better for the Iraqi people. However, this is to look into the distance so as to ignore the tragedy of the dead sons and daughters at one’s feet.

I think Bush (and indeed the American right in general) would do well to downplay the “humanitarian angle” since they will be accused of hypocrisy next time such a crisis occurs in another country and they return to their mantra of “none of our business”.

[december]

It’s a just war, say Iraq’s exiles

…Iraqi exiles in Britain yesterday condemned the anti-war march and warned that it would make it easier for Saddam Hussein to continue massacring his own people.

As hundreds of exiles, many of them with first-hand experience of Saddam Hussein’s brutality, prepared to stage their own counter-demonstration in London today, many spoke with anger as they watched the peace protesters pour through the streets of London…

…As his sister Nibal, 43, prepared the chicken and rice, Ali al-Ezzawi, 51, insisted that there had to be “a war against Saddam to help the Iraqi people” as he struggled to make sense of protesters’ slogans, shaking his head with disbelief as he spotted one saying: “A scud against Bush is worth two against Saddam.”

“Why do they say these silly things? No one inside Iraq will agree with what they are doing now. They are waiting day by day for Saddam Hussein to be deposed, for the unfinished business of 1991 to be completed,” said Mr al-Ezzawi…

Mr al-Ezzawi’s friend, Saad Qasim, 53, recounted his own experiences as he too watched the marchers with visible distaste showing on his face. “My 11-year-old son was killed in 1991 by Iraqi soldiers. He was just a kid. They shot him as he went to get some water,” he said tearfully…

Mr al-Ezzawi was unable to keep the anger out of his voice as he agreed. "Yes, no-one seems to be thinking about that. The people on the anti-war march, they don’t seem to realise, they don’t have any idea what Saddam Hussein is like, the massacres, the genocides he has committed…

Elsewhere in Britain, other Iraqi exiles were equally critical of the marchers. Among them was Dr Khalaf, a consultant neurologist at St Bartholomew’s Hospital, London, who worked in the Iraqi army during the country’s war with Iran in the 1980s and during the Gulf War, before fleeing to Britain to escape Saddam’s regime…

“The march will not serve Iraqi people. It will serve only Saddam Hussein. This is probably the last real chance to get rid of him and finish this dark era in history. They should not even go to the UN. The UN is a system which can be very easily deceived.”

Dr Khalaf said he was particularly angry at the lack of action, or even vocal protests, by those on the march against the years of atrocities carried out by Saddam against the Iraqi people.

“Where were you all while Saddam was killing thousands of Iraqis since the early 70s? And where are you now, given that every week he executes people through the “court of revolution”, a summary court run by the secret security office?” he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/02/16/ndemo316.xml

[yojimbo]

RandySpears I don’t believe either of the links Decembers or mine to be speaking for all. I just came across the guardian link and threw it out there. No real meaning was implied by it. Probably shouldn’t have put it here but there you go

[yojimbo]

I really should proof read

[RandySpears]

december:

The current estimate of iraqi population is about 22,5 million. If one in six iraqis live in exile, as you pointed out, that should make a total of 3,5 million exiles (please check my figures, not sure). Out of these one hundred protested in favor of a war in London.

Now, when i participated in the peace rally this Saturday, there were about a hundred exile-iraqi kurds marching right beside me.
Still, my local newspaper, besides running a feature on the 35 000 (of course majority non iraqi ;)) marching con- also ran an about half the size feature on a hundred exiles marching pro-war.

There. It all comes down to propaganda for either one of the two sides. I, myself, is not at all sure that the majority of iraqis (exile or domestic) is against a war. I can very well believe they are for (allthough i am not). What i am saying is that we don’t know, and we won’t find out through citing individuals.

Having said that, december, i challenge you to either adress these issues, or stop posting these mammoth citations, and start making up your own arguments!

[yojimbo]

Having said that, december, i challenge you to either adress these issues, or stop posting these mammoth citations, and start making up your own arguments!

snort RandySpears may I introduce you to december

[RandySpears]

December, pleased to meet you! Say thats a nice citation you got there: let’s discuss it over some tea.

[SentientMeat]

Incidentally, december, where else would you advocate intervention after Iraq, for humanitarian reasons?

[december]

*Originally posted by SentientMeat *
**Incidentally, december, where else would you advocate intervention after Iraq, for humanitarian reasons? **

I would like to see the US take the lead in bringing democracy to the entire Middle East and Africa.

[SentientMeat]

I would like to see the US take the lead in bringing democracy to the entire Middle East and Africa.

A noble goal, my friend.

The last thing I would wish to see is an isolationist US. We may occasionally differ on the specifics of each case, but if your principles are consistent and as worthy as you have stated I would be happy to stand at your shoulder.

[Milum]

Here’s a bet. Two to one. Nobody who apologies for Saddam Hussain has read the book…

Cruelty And Silence: by Kanan Maakiya

(If you have, and still want the Iraqis to shut up and stop moaning and mumbling about Saddam’s tortures and atrocities, may God and Allah have mercy on your soul.)

[RandySpears]

Here’s a new bet. I’ll raise you 10 to 1.

The majority of people in the world have not read that book, and should therefore according to your standards either go read it immediately or stop having an opinion!

Noone here has told any the iraqis to stop “moaning and mumbling” about anything. I would think this debate is more on the subject of whether individual iraqis have different opinions on different matters, or not.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

quote]december
I would like to see the US take the lead in bringing democracy to the entire Middle East and Africa.
[/quote]

You mean like Russia took the lead in bringing communism to eastern Europe?

Should we go around invading all non-democratic countries and force them to hold elections?

John Mace, [Milium,
I was flippant in my responses before because I think it’s a meritricious piece of journalism. I don’t believe for a second that the Iraqi people are clamoring for us to drop bombs on their houses. I’m sure I could find one French person who supports an American invasion of Iraq, that doesn’t prove the French are for the war.

I said she doesn’t know about the Iraqi people because she’s not Iraqi, she’s British. Having dead relatives doesn’t mean she know what the Iraqi people want.

[SentientMeat]

Should we go around invading all non-democratic countries and force them to hold elections?

Where feasible (ie. not China) and where removal of an undemocratic regime can reasonaly be said to involve less death and suffering than that caused by the regime itself, then yes.

“We” being the UN of course (which should become more democratic and rid itself of the dreaded veto).

[Zoe]

I’m a little bewildered that Rania Kashi and the others that are quoted all seem to equate “anti-war” with “pro status quo.” That’s rather limited thinking, isn’t it?

Is there any evidence a very strong Iraqi underground at work on the inside?

[december]

*Originally posted by Zoe *
**I’m a little bewildered that Rania Kashi and the others that are quoted all seem to equate “anti-war” with “pro status quo.” That’s rather limited thinking, isn’t it?

Is there any evidence a very strong Iraqi underground at work on the inside? **

This was the mistake we made in 1991. We left Saddam in power, expecting him to be overthrown. Instead he ruthlessly murdered all his opposition and consolidated power.

Twelve years later, I believe a US-led military invasion is the only thing that can change the status quo in Iraq. (I guess there’s also a faint hope that the imminent threat of a US-led attack might result in Saddam voluntarily withdrawing.)