Return of the King - talkback (spoilers)

Cafe Society
41

*Battles. I know, I know, but hear me out. By the end of the movie, the battles were getting just a teensy bit old for me. *

That’s basically the way battles are in the books. And really the only logical way to portray fantasy battles – without guns or maneuvering, it’s essentially just armies charging at each other, and you need the inspirational speeches to make it all sound important.

…and of course the scouring of the shire and the whole saruman agenda…hobbits charging, etc. but that i can deal with. because as fun as it is, it’s too much for the films.

I haven’t seen it yet, but I heard about this part. (I know how it ends, I read the books, and it’s my opinion that anyone who hasn’t read the books deserves to have the ending spoiled in detail.) So I’m not exactly sure how much of the last two chapters gets into the book. But the Scouring of the Shire is – well, I’ll let Mr. Tolkien say it:

The Scouring is absolutely necessary. It’s a Tolkienism at least as important, say, as Gollum, or the waning of the Elves, or not being able to use the Ring. A major example of his beliefs/morals influencing the plot.

This leads me to think that if Frodo pushes Gollum at the end, that also destroys the whole point of Gollum redeeming himself by doing what Frodo was not able to do. Which is why Gollum has to live anyway. I’ve said before (many times) that if I were an LOTR character, I would have killed Gollum 40 times.

42

OK, just got home, still catching my breath (metaphorically speaking).

First, my teentsy disappointments: I would’ve liked to have seen Aragorn using the palantir. What happened to the line “he has gone unchallenged long enough”?

I too would’ve liked to have heard more dialog between Eowyn and the WKoA.

And speaking of whom: my favorite scene in the whole book is the confrontation between Gandalf and the WK, interrupted by the horns of Rohan. Gone, pfft. That’s my biggest complaint.

And the Mouth of Sauron. Another very cool scene–and they even cast the part. Maybe it’ll be in the EE.

And I would’ve loved a closing shot of Frodo on the boat, seeing the coast of Valinor–instead of just the door closing on Bag End.

But with that out of the way–everything else was perfect. Just amazingly perfect. The charge of the Rohirrim had me hyperventilating. The dead were cool. Shelob was great (I was worried for a minute when Frodo got away…what the hell have they done to the plot now?). Legolas and the oliphaunt was fun.

Grimace – here’s the description of Minas Morgul from the book (Two Towers, “The Stairs of Cirith Ungol”):

Not a complaint, just a mystery: for 4 years we’ve been seeing a shot of what looks like Merry pledging fealty to Theoden (hobbit kneeling, king standing, outdoors). I was greatly surprised not to see that it wasn’t in the film.

43

So am I the only person here who was underwhelmed by the movie? I can’t say I didn’t like it, but not nearly as well as the first two. Among other things, there were a couple of MST3K worthy moments with Sam and Frodo (“I can’t carry the ring, but I CAN CARRY YOU!”), and the extended farewells kept going on … and on … and on … to the point I wondered why I was bothering to sit with a numb butt till the end. A number of effects shots took me out of the moment by being not quite convincing enough, or even a little humorous (Can anyone say, Legolas and the Oliphaunt?)
Glad to see the filmmakers diverge from the book by not undercutting Eowyn’s character with the whole “Oh, I promise to behave like a proper woman from here on out” routine., as well as actually letting her kill the Witch King rather than merely wound him.

Arwen, sadly, remains one of the most useless trophy brides in all of fiction.

44

Fraid so. At least as far as I’m concerned you are.

45

Heh, after all the times i’ve read it, and I must’ve just missed it. Thanks Jsc1953.

I have to agree with this, I was looking forward to seeing this scene, but it wasn’t there.

46

“Glad to see the filmmakers diverge from the book … by actually letting her kill the Witch King rather than merely wound him.”

Er, it happens on screen just as in the books: Merry stabs him in the leg, then Eowyn finishes him off with a blow to the head.

47

I was psyched to see Toxie in a cameo role. Good to know he still gets work. :wink:

48

Wow wow wow wow. Infriggingcredible.

I thought the beginning dragged a bit. They could’ve cut the starting Smeagol scene and I wouldn’t have missed it a bit. There was quite a lot of setup at the beginning to get everyone started on thier various arcs, and some of it just kinda bumped along.

Once we got to Minas Tirith, things picked up. Aragorn started his Paths thing, the Rohirrim started off, and the whole rollercoaster started. From then on it was about 2 hours of emotion – intense emotion. Terror, dread, tears, joy, relief, cheers. I got quite misty more than once. The whole theater cheered at least twice. Then the infamous 4 endings, which drug a bit but was needed. Big big applause at the end.

Re: “frodo pushed gollum in”. Huh?!? What I saw was that they were struggling and they both fell in, Frodo grabbing on just in time (and would have perished but for Sam).

49

And did anyone feel a twang of familiarity at Eowyn and Theoden’s parting chat? “I’m going to save you!” “You’ve already saved me, Eowyn.” Return of the Jedi, anyone?

50

Did you seriously just complain about the single best moment of the movie? :smack:

51

More random thoughts:

The Dead were… hmmm. The greenish animation put me in mind of a ride at a certain large theme park near LA. The concept was cool, the execution just seemed less than well done. (I guess you can’t say “less than believable” when commenting on this sort of movie, but you know what I mean.)

Did I see a Pukil Man statue at Dunharrow? Right when Elrond (cloaked) is riding up the switchback?

Denethor’s Human Fireball act was unfortunate. More than a few people in my theater laughed when he shot off the cliff in flames.

Minas Tirith, especially the courtyard of the White Tower/Tree was marvelously well done. The architecture overall, and especially the ‘throne room’, was absolutely beautiful.

WTF was up with the Orcs all conveniently killing each other at Cirith Ungol in 10 seconds flat? Yes, I know that happens in the books, but in the movie it was inexplicable. Bad editing.

Minas Morgul was cool, just about like the book. The Big Signal announcing the start of the war was in the book, but there wasn’t much done in the movie to make it make sense to anyone. If y’all are wondering, the Big Green Light served the same purpose as Pippin lighting the war beacons for Gondor – it was a signal to other troops to take action, in this case to attack Gondor.

Wow, much more trivia, but I’m tired. I’ll see it again in a couple of days and probably absorb more.

52

OK, one more: it was quite amusing to see the Minas Tirith catapults launching what was apparently just-knocked-down portions of the city at the attacking army.

53

Just got home.

::gasp::

I’ve been telling all my friends how Sam is DA MAN. Now they understand why. He is awesome. He is mighty. The scenes in Mordor were so heart-wrenching, even though I knew what was going to happen. Minas Morgul looked amazing. The scars around Frodo’s neck from the weight of the ring. The crawling. Frodo mumbling about how he couldn’t see the SHire any more… (dammit, stupid waterworks…)

I’m sure it wasn’t strictly canon to the book, but I loved the scene of Gandalf taking charge of the Gondor’s defenses.

Denethor: Runaway! Runaway! Snivel! Snivel!
Gandalf: ::glare:: ::THWACK::

The ride of the Rohirrim. The horns. The shouts of “Death!” The way the orcs looked, like “Hey, wait, they’re really not stopping, are they… oh shit…” Were I to be any sort of person from Middle Earth, I would be a Rider of Rohan (well, a shieldmaiden I suppose).

Eowyn has been my personal hero since I was 12 years old. The fell-beast decapitation and Witch King skewering were mighty satisfying. (And did you see her hamstring that mumak?)

The scene of Pippin singing/ Faramir’s suicide charge got the tears rolling much earlier than I expected them to be. Billy Boyd has a gorgeous voice. I hope it’s on the soundtrack.

I wish I were more capable of eloquence, this movie deserves it.

54

I saw a midnight showing last night and started typing up my thoughts but fell asleep mid-post. I’ll see if I can whip myself back into the Harry Knowles-esque frenzy I was when I got home this morning.

It was just mind-blowing. I don’t like talking during movies, and I don’t like people talking to me during movies, but I just got to the point where I couldn’t hold it in – I had to lean over to my friend and whisper, “This is just so fucking awesome.”

This will sound like ridiculous hyperbole, but I think it’s warranted: Return of the King is the culmination of the entire last centry of movie-making. It’s not perfect, and I don’t even know if it’s my favorite movie (yet), but it’s an epic example of what can happen when a dedicated team of people who love movies get together with enough money and decide to pull out all the stops. When the alien warships are hovering over the White House, demanding to see some evidence that the Earth should be spared, I’ll just pop in a copy of Return of the King, give them a chance to wipe the tears from their eyes, and send them on their way. (“Quaxxor still not understand why hu-man removed Scouring of Shire. Was crucial part of book.”)

The appearance of the Witch King and the opening of the gates at Minas Morgul was such a brilliantly-conceived scene, maybe my favorite scene in any movie ever.

The death of the Witch King was so perfectly done; I had high expectations from it since it was such a cool and memorable scene from the book, and all my expectations were met and exceeded.

What impressed me the most, though, was the sound design. Perfectly done throughout, completely immersive.

The ending did drag on way too long – the book had a long denouement, sure, but at least it felt like stuff was happening. I still think removing the Scouring of the Shire was totally the right choice; another mini-climax after all that action would’ve just been exhausting. But the pacing of the last scenes was just too slow.

My only other complaints are nitpicks: several of the effects really stood out as effects, which I hardly never noticed in the other two. Denethor was a little too much of a shallow, self-centered villain, I would’ve preferred some more complexity there. I missed the bit about the statues on the bridge to Minas Morgul; I kept waiting for them to come to life.

55

OK, more:

There were a couple of refs to the book that I liked that some may have missed:

  • The Witch King and entourage are shown stooping on MK repeatedly, and men were abandoning their posts, cowering, screaming. This was apparently to show something explicitly explained in the books, that the power of the Nazgul was mostly in the fear and terror that was engendered in everyone they encountered. I wish this had been driven home more, that the power of the Nazgul wasn’t just as the Dragon Airforce of Mordor.

  • Before the Ring was destroyed but Sauron was distracted because Frodo had claimed the ring, there’s a nasty big troll attacking (I think) Aragorn. Troll stops in mid-swing, kinda shrugs like “screw this” and wanders off. Apparently a reference, per the book, to the Dark Tower losing it’s power to drive the evil forces. Too subtle, but a nice touch.

56

It is. And it’s an excellent soundtrack; Into the West is amazing, and The White Tower is already some of my favorite movie music ever.

Speaking of teary scenes, there were plenty hat had me all misty-eyed, but the one that really got me was when all of Gondor bows to the hobbits. It was a beautifully-executed scene all around (especially the expressions on the hobbits’ faces). That scene now ranks up there with the “Greatest honor of all is having you for a daughter” scene from Mulan. The bit with Frodo & Bilbo riding in the carriage together got to me, as well.

57

One more, probably unworthy thought: Did anyone get the feeling that the filmmakers had Sam mention Rosie Cotten on Mount Doom, and later showed Sam’s wedding to her, just to squelch any “Were Frodo and Sam gay” questions ? It seems like a stretch to me, but there’s been plenty of speculation on the Frodo/Sam stuff before, so you have to wonder…

58

Sol: the Rohirrim shouting “Death!” then charging to battle against overwhelming odds. I can’t quite decribe why, but that part wrenched my heart from my chest. And right after, of course, Eowyn and WiKi – not the confrontation, but the courage and loyalty of the characters, facing death and sacrifice unflinchingly. <chokes up>.

59

I saw the 11 am showing this morning, and the house was packed. The movie was such an immersive experience that I found myself forgetting for long stretches of time that I was in a theater with 500 other people. I’m going again next week with my brother, and I already can’t wait for the Extended Edition to come out.

A couple of notes in response to what others have said:

  1. I thought that it was strongly implied that Denethor had access to a palantir during his first meeting with Gandalf. He said that he saw more than Gandalf knew, and that he knew Gandalf was trying to return Aragorn to the throne of Gondor. It echoed Saruman at Isengard in FoTR saying, “I have seen it.” I’m hoping that the EE will show Denethor using the palantir and being influenced by Sauron. As it was, however, he was half-mad with grief over Boromir’s death when Gandalf arrived, and seeing Faramir apparently dead pushed him completely over the edge. I thought it was clear that we were seeing a man who clearly wasn’t at his best and wasn’t his usual self.

  2. I don’t recall Gandalf murdering Denethor, as Evil Death said. As I remember the scene, Denethor grabbed a torch from one of the attendants and dropped it on the pyre to immolate himself and Faramir after Gandalf and Pippin tried to stop it. It was after Denethor saw Faramir open his eyes and look at him that he ran from the crypt and threw himself to his death.

  3. Faramir and Eowyn’s relationship gets a brief nod during the coronation scene, where they’re scene standing together twice. I don’t see how they could have possibly had time to fit it in, but it was nice to see it at least acknowledged.

  4. I also don’t remember Frodo pushing Gollum off the edge. As I recall it, the two of them were struggling for the ring, and tumbled off together. The look of sheer bliss on Gollum’s face as he reclaimed his Precious was perfect, completely unmindful of the fact that he was moments away from his death.

  5. Like some others here, I didn’t particularly like Arwen falling ill after she gave up her immortality, but I suspect that it was done to explain why she wasn’t rushing off to Minas Tirith to meet Aragorn the second she’d made her decision. I’ll be interested to see what the director’s commentary on the DVD has to say about this.

And finally, a few comments of my own:

  • I don’t know if anyone else noticed this, but the chain that the ring was on around Frodo’s neck was making marks on his skin, as if it were a physically heavy burden, as well as a psychological one. By the time they reached Mount Doom, the skin under the chain had been rubbed raw and bloody.

  • I really enjoyed the Paths of the Dead Sequence, and seeing the Men of the Mountain arrive on the Corsair ships.

  • Does anyone know how much time passed between the destruction of the One Ring and Aragorn’s coronation? I didn’t get a close look as the camera swept over Minas Tirith, but it looked like the damage to the city had been repaired. I hope I’m wrong, but it would have been nice to see some lingering reminders of the damage and loss of life wrought by the battle, and seeing the city scarred even in this moment of celebration. Especially without the Scouring of the Shire in the movie, it would have been nice to see some indications that victory came at a price, that things aren’t exactly the way they used to be.

  • I liked the scene in the tavern where the four hobbits were just looking at each other and around the inn for a moment before they raised their mugs. Now that they’re home again, they realize just how much they’ve changed while they were away.

60

Just got back from watching it – in a suite overlooking the plebians in the theater, no less. The only way to fly.

During the battle outside Minas Tirith, when the oliphaunts appeared, was I the only person to hear ‘Imperial walkers on the north ridge!’ in his mind?

And when the Rohirrim charged, to hear ‘Rogue squadron! Use your harpoons and tow cables, and go for the legs!’?

And when Legolas was dangling on the side of the oliphaunt, to think ‘He should just cut it open with his lightsaber and throw a grenade inside.’?

And when the gates were breached, to hear ‘Imperial troops have entered the base! Imperial troops have ent–’?

I was?

Damn.