The Return of the King thoughts - SPOILERS

*** THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR THE RETURN OF THE KING***

These spoilers may be unboxed. You have been warned.

Turn back now. Really.

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Please post your thoughts here along with mine.

I saw the 12:01am showing of the movie. I liked The Fellowship of the Ring better than The Two Towers. This ranks right up there with FotR and may be better. I really enjoyed this movie. Here are some thoughts in no particular order.

  • I second guessed the choice for the actress playing Eowyn after seeing The Two Towers. I stand corrected. I liked her much better in RotK. Her battle with the Witch King was well done and had the audience cheering.

  • PJ once again took liberties with the story, but for the most part I thought they were all good choices that worked well. Things like the dead army being at Minus Tirith worked ok for me.

  • The charge of the Riders of Rohan was outstanding. I wish the theatre would have had the sound up more.

  • The seige engines looked great too, although I thought that Minus Tirith took damage too easily.

  • I did have a bit of a problem with the time line in the story. They really didn’t show the passing of days well. It appeared like the Riders of Rohan travelled to Gondor in under a day after Gandalf had said it was three days journey “as the Nazgul flies.”

  • Legolas getting all extreme with the oliphaunt worked pretty well for me. Gimli’s comic relief was toned down some and seemed to work well.

  • Denethor kind of got the shaft in the movie. He’s not a very likeable character anyway, but they made no reference to Sauron using the palantir to cloud his mind. He just seemed like a crazed old man that Gandalf knocked around. I’m hoping the extended edition helps with this.

  • Speaking of which, there was no mention of Aragorn healing Faramir, Eowyn, and Pippin or Faramir and Eowyn finding each other. Again, I imagine this is material for the EE.

  • For a while there I thought that Frodo was going to get past Shelob without being stung. I was even thinking in a Gollum voice, “Peter Jackson, you f*cking hack!” (see last year’s MTV awards) Nice recovery on that one PJ. I ended up really liking the Shelob scenes.

What can I say. The negatives are mostly nitpicks. This was a great movie! :slight_smile:

That should be Merry of course.

3 Words:

Shat… my… pants.

By far the best of the 3 films IMHO. I look forward to shatting my pants again this Saturday when I see it again.

I enjoyed everything about this movie. I found myself despairing (even though I’ve read the books) right along with the characters. I was sucked in more than any other movie I have ever seen. My only minor, minor gripe is that the wrapping up at the end of the movie dragged. I completely understand the tying up of lose ends but there was about 6 occasions where I felt like PJ was pretending to end the movie. And I see now how wise it was to not include the scouring of the Shire.

Fantastic movie. I agree on the scouring of the Shire being left out, it would take a good 30min to properly tell the story anyway. I found the ending(s) to be a bit jarring, just when you think the movie is over, whoops! there’s another scene!

Gimli’s role is much improved over TTT, comic relief, but not insultingly so.

The Shelob scenes were good, though I thought the battle was different in the books, wasn’t her death semi-accidental with her falling on Sting? I somewhat prefer the way Gollum falls over the book having him just accidentally step off the edge. I could have done without the ‘cliffhanger’, a quick little struggle between Gollum and Frodo with Gollum falling over the edge would have done it for me.

Before watching ROTK, losing the Scouring never bothered me much. Whil watching ROTK, I was thinking just how cool it would be to see it. But as long as the ending was, there was just no way it would’ve worked. Losing it was really the only choice PJ had.

Quick and dirty thoughts:

Visuals:
Astounding. Best of the three. I loved the way the battle scenes moved elegantly from the bird’s-eye-view–allowing you to see the enormity of the battle–to the close-up hand-to-hand fighting. I have never seen battles done more elegantly, and I don’t think I will for a very long time (barring any future movies that try to one-up this trilogy in battlefield special effects).

Emotional reaction:
I rarely, if ever, cry at movies. I teared up in this one. Not when character were died, but at the end, when the fellowship rejoined and then broke up for the final time. Friendship has always had a soft place in my heart, and to see the end of it always hurts.

Particuarly awesome scenes:
Minas Tirith, both at the beginning and at the end.

When Denethor sends Faramir out to retake Osgiliath, and Pippin sings for him while he’s eating. Most haunting thing I’ve seen since Mellish got bayoneted in Saving Private Ryan. One of the scenes that’ll stay in my mind for a very long time, and even more excellent for not showing the result. Everything that needed to be said was shown in the cause, not the effect. Simply wonderful.

Shelob.

Nitpicks/Gripes:
I wish they had shown Grima killing Sauroman, but this is very, very minor. They did a good enough job explaining how Sauroman is out of the picture.

Most other plot changes didn’t bother me; I’m not a person who thinks the novels should have been put verbatim onto celluloid. There’s a difference between making a movie and writing a book, and I laud Peter Jackson for the ability to know the difference.

Overall: The best movie I’ve seen this year and one of the best I’ve ever seen. It’s really the crowning achievement of the series.

“Not when character were died”

What the hell was I thinking when I wrote that?

“Not when characters were killed,” I meant.

I must learn that preview is my friend.

I’ve been unconvinced by the third movie. Well…it’s quite good, but it really looked like a loosely sewed patchwork, with the story switching from one plot to another without taking the time to explain with some depth what was going on. For instance : the scene with Pipin and the Palantir was included in the movie. But what was the point, since we haven’t been told much about the palantirs and their importance during the three movies? The importance of the Palantir in Saruman’s demise wasn’t mentionned (it apears only as a communication tool in the first movie). Denethor’s palantir isn’t mentionned, either, so this character’s behavior doesn’t seem to make any sense. So, IMO, they should have either explained what this Palantir thing was all about, either just forgotten about them and cut the scene with Pippin which doesn’t bring anything important in the storyline.
That was a mere example of a general trend I noticed in this last movie : too much unclearly explained events, and also too much jumping from one plotline to another.
However, there are things which weren’t included and that I missed. For instance :

-Saruman facing Gandalf after Helm’s Deep. More generally, in the three movies, Saruman has been downplayed, and his importance minored. It never appears as the powerful and wise wizard he was, head of the white council, he appears as a servant of Sauron rather than acting on his own behalf, the reasons of his downfall are never mentionned, and something I really missed and expected to see in this last movie : the power of his voice shaking the will of the Rohirrims and of Gandalf’s companions at Isengard. I was really expecting this scene and was dissapointed.

-Arwen’s fate. The end of Arwen and Aragorn’s lives is one of the most moving part of the book. I know it’s only an appendice, but I had read that it would be included in some way in the movie, so, once again, I was dissapointed. More generally, the importance of Arwen’s choice, her father’s reaction, etc… were downplayed, IMO. Probably because it would have been too sad, and wouldn’t have played well for an “happy end”. On a related note, downplayed also the departure of the elves from middle earth, which is merely mentionned but doesn’t appear nearly as poignant than in the novels.
-Once again : downplayed the slow corruption of Frodo’s mind by the ring, and even the pain of bearing it to Mount Doom. Frodo appears only very briefly to be tainted by the ring, and mostly as a result of Golum’s deceptions. In particular, I’ve been very dissapointed by the scene where he claims the ring for himself. It was the scene I was expecting the most during the whole movie, and assuming that it would be a stunning scene. It wasn’t. He just said briefly “No, it’s mine”, puts it on and that’s the end of it. I would have prefered much less of this “struggle above the volcano and cliffhanger” thing, and much more stress on Frodo eventually overcome by the power of the ring and claiming it for himself. I must say that for me, it’s the most important scene of the whole three books.

-there’s essentialy nothing said about what happened in Minas Tirith, except for the battle scenes. In particular, as I already mentionned, Denethor’s behavior appears totally weird.

There were a little too much ends in this movie. Yes, I was definitely happy they included the Grey havens (though on the overall, I didn’t like the scene), but nevertheless…

I noticed they included some hints for the book’s afficionados about events/things which weren’t mentionned in the movie : for instance, Merry and Pippin are significantly taller during the third movie, a flag with the white swan on it appears in the crowd during the crowning and wedding scene, Gandalf is wearing the ring of fire at the Grey Havens scene (And I believe we can assume the fourth elf appearing in this scene is the forgotten Cirdan the shipwright), and I certainly missed plenty other similar hints.
I mosty said they downplayed this or that, but there’s one thing I think was overdone : the battle scenes. Too much huge monsters and people and horses flying over al over the place, walls and towers collapsing, etc…But I suppose there must be such long, impressive action scenes in the movie to please part of the public.

On the overall I’ve very mixed feeling about the movie. It seems to me the director wasn’t that successful, this time, in choosing what to include and what not to include in the movie. Once again, a kind of patchwork, where I often couldn’t understand why he stressed this part rather than this one, why he even mentionned something, why he didn’t explain another, or why he changed the plot in such or such way (for instance, Elrond coming himself to Rohan to bring Narsil, and telling to Aragorn that he should follow the path of the deads. The whole thing just didn’t make sense to me. Why such a change? What did this add to the storyline, the plot? What was the point?).
To sum up, I wasn’t bored, I even was quite pleased, but I found the movie rather confusing. I would said that it has been the less well thought out of the three parts, IMO.
Oh…and I deeply disliked the adaptation of Faramir’s character in both TTT and TROTK.

Well, Shelob didn’t die. She just got really, really hurt, and the books mention how unaccustomed she is to pain.

I got overtones of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade there (“Frodo… Frodo… Let it go.”). However, I liked it… it showed that, even to the end, even as it was being destroyed, the Ring was still causing Frodo to lust after it.

And how fuckin’ cool was Sauron’s death? You see the great eye, burning up, spasming around in agony, falling from the tower… and then BOOOOOOM!!!

Arwen’s fate WAS shown on one of the previous movies (sorry i usually zone out during the Arwen scenes so i can’t remember which one) but you can see her mourning over the body of a really old Aragorn and then wandering by herself through the woods of Lorien.

In the book Sam got under her belly and tried to cut her, so Shelob tried to crush him to death by dropping her weight on him but Sam was holding Sting upright and she ended up impaling herself. I don’t know if that counts as an accident though :slight_smile:

The interaction between Sam, Frodo and Gollum seemed just right. The corrupting of Frodo wasn’t underplayed. Gollum’s game to separate Frodo from Sam was a good addition to the movie. I even thought that Sam’s slight hesitation about returning the ring worked.

I always felt that leaving out the battle for the Shire was a good decision. However, I was disappointed that the final scenes imply that it didn’t happen off stage. There is talk about a Hobbit movie, but I think a Scouring of the Shire movie (or TV special) would be a good idea.

I might be the only person who feels this way, but I was disappointed that we didn’t see more of the journey through Mordor.

Considering that the Witch King was the big bad ass of the invading forces, he seemed to get limited screen time. Gandolf and the Witch King both foreshadow a showdown between the two of them but I don’t remember any such scene. Did I miss it? At least Eowyn and Merry’s fight against the Witch king was played just right. Was there a little tribute to the Wizard of OZ in the way he melted?

The battle scenes were spectacular and I loved the look of Minias Tirith, especially when we first see it. However, the walls fell like tissue paper when they were hit by flying stones. Walls seem a little more durable when they recreate old siege weapons on PBS.

I know that I saw the Mouth of Sauron in some book about the movie. But I didn’t see him in the movie. Was he cut out?

I was looking to see if Merry and Pippen had become taller than Frodo Sam and other hobbits but it didn’t look that way to me.

I agree that there should have been more explanation of the significance of the Palantir and its effect on people in the movie. It could replace the rather long Smegol scene at the beginning.

Wow. Fan-freaking-tastic!!
Definitely the best of the 3 movies.
The battle scenes…
Shelob…
The Nazgul…

I didn’t have much problem with the gratuitous Arwen “dying” crap, although I did think cutting out the Denethor/palantir connection was a big hole. I’m assuming it’ll be in the EE edition. Actually, the Denethor character was much dimished in the movie. Maybe it was necessary, but that’s dimension that is really missed.

Great movie. One of the best I’ve ever seen. Better get the Best Picture Oscar!!

I liked it overall but I must say I was disappointed with the ending.

I haven’t read the books and I was expecting at least one of the fellowship: especially Frodo and/or Sam to be killed. After the destruction of the ring that is where it seemed to be going; then Gandalf and the eagles came to the rescue at the last minute. Soon everyone was united to live happily ever after. It seemed to cheapen the idea that this was a struggle against desparate odds. I think a bittersweet ending where the ring was destroyed but also one of the major characters killed would have been far more dramatically satisfying. Of course this isn’t PJ’s fault since I am assuming he followed the basic ending in the book. Maybe it works in the books but it didn’t in the films.

I got four words:

Legolas is the shit.

That is all.

I frankly don’t see how any human being could be disappointed by this movie…it is, without a doubt, one of the best movies ever made.

Well, in the books it’s not so much a happy ending thing. Frodo has been deeply wounded by the ordeal of carrying the Ring, and by his failure to destroy it himself. His spirit was slowly dying, and his body never recovered completely, either. His sailing for the West was as much a desperate attempt to heal him as it was a reward for being a Ringbearer.

Also not consistent with happy endings is the end of the Elves in Middle-Earth. The destruction of the Ring shut down the powers of the lesser rings and their use in maintaining the magic of the few Elven realms. The Elves have a choice to either sail for the West and leave the world, or to dwindle and become no more than legends and folktales.

The end of the Third Age is bittersweet. Sauron is gone, but the Elves will decline and magic slowly fade. This doesn’t make for good cinematic endings, however…

Rogue are you a member of ringbearer too? Your post reminded me of on one on there… anyway not important

My thoughts on the movie:

Absolutely Fantastic, Brillaint!

Loved the Beacons, favourite part of the film, just loved the way it was done, I thought it was going to be a huge light or something, but that was just fantastic.

The retreat from Osgiliath and the Nazgul, and then Gandalf saving them.

The Charge of the Rohirrim, when they turned up and all of em shouted, super cool, hairs standing on back of neck type cool.

Shelob freaked me out, my already insane fear of spiders has reached new heights.

The music & imagery of Gandalf at Minas Tirith when he goes there first… amazing stuff.

Pippins song whilst Denethor is eating & Faramir is charging back to Osgiliath.

Arwens vision and her choice. Very well done. I think her being sick and the life of the Elder leaving her goes back to how Elrond, and his chiildren have the choice to be mortal or immortal. Arwen chosing to become mortal and thus her being sick was, imho, maybe a portrayal of all the good leaving and dying if Sauron does gain power.

The Whole Battle of the Pellenor was beyond expectations, and Legolas killing the Mumak was brilliantly done.

Where was the scene of Eomer finding either Eowyn or Theoden in the movie, I missed that because I had wanted to findout whom it was when he was crying, I guess that too will turn up in the EE.

Cant really remember what else I liked, Il have to go see it again when I get a chance, I remember not liking the lack of romance between Faramir & Eowyn, but maybe it might turn up in the EE.
Had some other stuff thought of but cant for the life of me remember what that was, so Il wrap this up by saying that I think each and every actor on this final film played there parts brilliantly!

Delly

Pssst… to the Book purists, not to anger or argue with your sometimes valid points, the third or fourth screen of the credits says based on the book by JRR Tolkien. :wink:

Peter Jackson for Best Director IMHO

Jackson left a bit of an implication in there… he had Pippin talk about seeing the “white tree”, leaving us to think that one of the seeing stones was in Denethor’s (or SOMEONE in Gondor’s) possession.

I found it far more impactful that Frodo technically “survived”, but as an empty, tortured shell of his former self. It’s far more tragic, I think, that even though he lived, he still could not stay with his friends that cared for him so much.

Death, I think, is an easy and unintelligent way to try to insert a tragic parting in a story. “Hey, Bob, I want a sad ending… what should I do?” “Kill the main character!”

I suspect that will turn up in the EE. One of the orcs took Frodo’s things in the tower above Cirith Ungol to give to the Mouth of Sauron, but then he didn’t appear at the Black Gate. So I’m expecting him to show up in the EE.

I think the basic problem is the number of near-deaths experiences the major characters go through throughout the films. Again and again one of the major characters is almost killed and movie turns up the drama but… our hero returns safe and sound !! It has happened so many times that by the time Frodo and Sam are rescued at the end it has lost all impact. Frodo, in particular , has four near-death experiences in the three films. This plot device is way over-used.