Return of the King - talkback (spoilers)

The problem is much of the romance between the two apparently occured in the past, off-screen.

The Aragorn character grew up in Rivendell, and of course Arwen is the daughter of the ruler of the place …

Think of it as Aragorn’s steady long-time girlfriend. He loves her a lot, and they know each other totally; he is also superficially attracted to Eyown, who has a lot of very good qualties (brave, loyal) but who also has issues (torn between doing what tradition expects, and a glamorous but maybe very short life as a warrior). She is madly in love with Aragorn; Aragorn likes her, she is beautiful and brave, but he sees that what she really loves is his glamour and the promise of freedom from the stifling conventions of her society. She does not really know him at all, and her love is just infatuation. I get the impression he is tempted … certainly, when he is under the impression that Arwen is going to choose immortality (at his urging!). Once he knows that Arwen has chosen him, there is really no choice - to leave her then would be very caddish indeed.

I disagree that Arwen is a “simpering wimp”. It is a big deal to decide to give up immortality for some guy …

Huh, I hadn’t considered the age & aging difference: Eowyn is 24 at the time of WotR, Aragorn is 87. If Aragorn could even relate to someone so much younger, he lives another 123 years after the events in the movie; Eowyn would have presumably died of old age many decades earlier.

Saw it yesterday, loved it…

One question: what ended up happening to the orc with the puffy white disfigured face? We saw him dodge a big trebuchet rock… then I don’t remember ever seeing him again… Did I miss something?

He suffers the fate of all minor movie villians - he gets trampled under by the righteous. :wink:

I thought it was fantastic. Even Mrs. Gaffer who has no love of fantasy or of war movies was moved to tears.

Favorite part? Theoden riding along the front line of the Riders touching their spears with his sword just before their charge to certain death. Holy shnikes. I’m a big burly tough guy but, I swear, I had this persistent piece of popcorn lodged in my eye right at this moment.

Samwise the Strong has long been my favorite character (hence my username actually) and I thought that PJ, and Sean Astin, did a remarkable job portraying Sam’s defining characteristics in this movie.

All in all, I thought that the balance between battle and the personal stories was awesome and I can’t wait to see the extended edition.

As far as the Scouring goes, I have always considered this a critical component of the book in that it shows that Sauron’s evil has touched all of Middle-Earth and that the hobbits and the Shire have been irrevocably changed (plus it gives Sam good reason to use Galadriel’s gift). However, I also really liked the sense in the movie that the true reward for the 4 is that the Shire is unchanged and the hobbits unaffected by what has transpired.

A few other things for the extended edition…Will they show Gimli accompanying Legolas to the Havens? What about Sam? Merry and Pippin being laid to rest beside the tomb of King Elessar?

You got a glimpse of him realigning the troops to face the Rohirrim lining up to ride them down. I don’t remember seeing him after that. Probably on the bottom of a pile with a bunch of hoofprints up and down his broken body.

Another treb fan here. I’ve never seen a really big one – certainly not as big as the Gondor editions are – but the ones I have seen come to rest in that almost stately manner you see after slinging their rock. Yay, Weta!

I’m surprised no one’s mentioned Grond, the ram that breaks the gate. The art department came up with something far cooler than my imagination had.

The point where I lost it completely was before the Rohirrim charge, when Theoden passes down the front rank, tapping their lances with his sword. I barely got my composure back in time to catch Eowyn’s dispatcing WiKi, a scene I had been waiting four years to see.

DD

#1 Ah, Grond! The Hammer of the Underworld, the Fell Weapon, wielded by Morgoth, with which he slew Fingolfin!

#2 Ah, Grond! Battering Ram of Sauron, named after his master Morgoth’s mace; modeled after Carcharoth the hound who bit off Beren’s hand and had his insides consumed by the Silmaril which later Earendil bore into the heavens.

Grond was cool.

Flick was awesome. It was nice to see Eldarion too! Back again tomorrow night for the 2nd viewing! No time to nitpick now. But I will later. Even so, BEST MOVIE EVER.

Ok first off, Im a woman, and I cant stand Eowyns character, so that completely screws up your whole notion. To me Arwen is a women who has accpeted her role and her fate in both book & movie and gets on with it. Eowyn on the other hand is the opposite, to me, in both book & movie, it always seemed like she was whining. For me Eowyns only redeeming qualities/deeds are her love for her uncle, the slaying of the witchking, and her falling in love with Faramir

As regards with why Aragorn is in love with Arwen, not a simple ‘huh?’ but a simple theory. Aragorn is a King amongst men, the picture of all that is good, strong and just in the world of men, it is only fitting that he should love the one woman in Middle Earth who completely symbolises all that it is good, beautiful and pure. IMHO.

Delly

Grond was extremely cool. I didn’t appreciate it sufficiently because I was so disappointed that the breaking of the gate wasn’t depicted as it was in the book–which was merely the best and most vividly imagined scene in the whole damn trilogy for me. So I’ll call it a wash, and appreciate it more on the second (and third…) viewings.

There is also the factor that she is 1)one of the only females of his station that knows who and what he is and 2)one of the few who, knowing what he is, loves him for himself rather than his position.

Consider that Eowyn was raised as a fighter, taught to use weaponry and be prepared to go into battle – and yet every time battle approached, she’d be shunted off to babysit the noncombatants! Not to mention because although she’d been trained to fight but wasn’t allowed to fight, that meant she had to sit idly by and watch her uncle corrupted by Saruman and find herself being sought after by Wormtongue.

I’d be bitter, too. I’ve always loved her and was so proud of her for finally finding a way to go out and do what she’d been taught to do – and then not only going, but doing it and in such grand style!

and

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I THOUGHT I remembered that the battering ram had a name, but I haven’t had a chance to look it up yet. And the additional info from QtM was awesome, as always.

Jebus, I cried from the beginning of Theoden’s speech all the way through the charge of the Rohirrim.

Has anyone heard Tolkien’s reading of that scene, with Theoden heartening his troops? I always get goosebumps and cry when I hear that too.

The Rohirrim and Eowyn’s actions make up for a lot of other stuff in the movie, to my mind.

I understand all that guys, I’m just saying its unfullfulling. I think she’s a simpering wimp in the movies - post the Ford. For someone who has pledged troth, she sure wavers and almost lets Elrond talk her out of it. In the books, for someone who has pledged troth, she doesn’t marry him until he is worthy of her (that is made darn clear). There is possibly a lot of backstory, but the appendix does darn all to shed light on it other than them spending a season together in Lorien (which does sound rather romantic - but I want more than a few sentences). Which is my main complain with CaptEgo’s comment, the appendix does not help (or not enough) - except to say that he loved her for a long time, and she loved him for about a quarter of a century less - there is no why other than her beauty.

RikWriter, I’d assume that there are many elves - female ones - who know who Aragorn is. As well as the women of his own people (there must be female “Rangers” - his mother was one). After all, the lineage in the past wasn’t dependant on marrying elves - the Dunedain kept the line going for a few years before Aragorn and Arwen. And a woman who won’t marry you until you are King isn’t exactly proving she doesn’t love you for your position, and doesn’t look at you twice until Galaderiel dresses you up to look like an elf-lord. (Granted, the king thing is her father’s position, but it isn’t like she goes out of her way to protest) Sorry Arwen and Pop come off as snobs. And snobs playing with the lineage of the Hope of Men…without a wife, Aragorn can’t exactly produce heirs, and it isn’t like he lives a life that has no danger. (Now they do have some foresight, but do they really know enough to know Aragorn will live long enough to produce an heir? I didn’t think even the mirror was that accurate.)

I do really love the uniting of elf and men in the union. I think an elf-bride is very fitting. But I do still think it comes from no where and the appendix doesn’t really fill in the gaps for me. I can IMAGINE Arwen as a woman who is good, beautiful and pure, but nothing I am given to read tells me it is so (well, the beautiful part is more than covered - its the good part that isn’t). And the references to the love between them are so sideways (they are there, and can be caught on successive readings) that the wedding is awkward when it happens.

And I sure hope Tolkien had a deeper relationship with his wife than “saw her and fell in love.” Physical attraction is great and all, but I want my romance to involve some character.

Then again, my big gripe with Tolkien has always been that I don’t think he writes character or dialogue to my taste.

I pretty much loved it, the only thing that kind of got my attention was the size of the armies. Like when They say they have 6000 horsemen, And later when Aragorn says there are 15,000 Orcs between Frodo ant the Mountain. I have been to a lot of sporting events, Particularly Michgan Stadium, where you can look around and see 100,000 people at once. And those numbers were off by several factors. Now I have no problem if you want to make a huge epic battle, hell it looked cool, just don’t tell me there are only 15,000 orcs and have a quarter million in the screen.

I loved it. The charge of the Rohirrim is my favorite scene, and I was sobbing all the way through. Yes, I would have preferred to see the Witch King at the gate, turned back by the sound of great horns of the North, wildly blowing. But this was good enough.

On the Eowyn/Aragorn/Arwen issue, I’m female, and I have a slightly different take. Yes, Eowyn rocked. She was raised as a shield maiden, and forced to babysit, and came through like a, a, well, like a true daughter of Rohan. There is a scene in the Houses of Healing (that was very cleverly moved to TTT in the movie) wherein it is made clear that Theoden wasn’t the only victim of Wormtongue’s evil. He got his hooks into her as well, and her heart and mind were poisoned. Her infatuation with Aragorn is a symptom of that poisoning. She sees him as a way out of her horrid, dreary dull life, and the fact that she sees her life like that is the evil that has been done to her. (Part of what Tolkien is trying to say, I think, is about the wonder and sanctity of everyday life, with it’s little routines and commonplace pleasures. Adventure and glory are fine, but only as a response to dire evil, not as good in themselves. But I digress.) As was said above, she doesn’t really know him, they are utterly different in age and temperment, but she is desparate. It is a sign of her underlying good character that she accepts his rejection, doesn’t argue or beg or follow him pathetically, but resolves to die in the best way possible.

Aragorn sees her infatuation for what it is. What would we think of him if he took advantage of a vulnerable girl? Should he walk away from someone else (of whom Eowyn knows nothing, good or bad) just because she is convenient? It speaks well for him that he is honest with her from the first, and makes it clear, gently and kindly, that he has other commitments.

Yeah, I think Arwen is pointless as written. The wedding is a total anticlimax. But one should keep in mind that JRRT was essentially a Victorian romantic when it came to women.

And, from my reading, Tolkien’s relationship with his wife was like that. He met her when he was a teenager and she was only a girl, and fell madly in love. (Background: his widowed mother had converted to Catholicism, along with her sons, been disowned by her family and died in poverty and suffering that could have been avoided. All his life, JRRT saw her as a martyr to the faith. He and his brother were raised by a Catholic priest whom she had appointed his guardian, a man whom JRRT respected and admired.) Because the object of his affection was Protestant, his guardian forbade him to see her or contact her until he was 25, thinking this would put an end to the romance. Tolkien wrote her on his 25th birthday, and they married soon after. He adored her, and said repeatedly that both Luthien and Arwen were modelled on his wife. So whatever was going on there, long separation and longing from afar were a key part of it. Think of the whole relationship as a love letter to his own wife, and it helps.
And, in case I didn’t mention it, I loved the movie.

wolfman, remember that at a stadium, the people are packed in very very tightly, and even stacked in rows going up. Their apparent size would inflate if you were to give each of them armor and a weapon and stand them all on level ground with more space between each.

One thing that bugged me the first time I saw it, and twice as much the second time, happens at Edoras – Gandalf tells Theoden he must ride to aid Gondor, Theoden asks why he should help those who did not help him, et cetera – but every time the scene is shot from a wide angle in the rafters, the same guard with the same dog is walking past from right to left, and is in a slightly different spot each time.

And did anyone else think Minas Morgul looked suspiciously like the Emerald City of Oz?

Punkyova: well said. The hurt and hope that Eowyn follows, that manifests in her infatuation for Aragorn is indeed as you say. However: in the book she does plead, and begs to follow him, and he painfully refuses her. After the battle, it’s Faramir who finally helps her heal from the evil times she’d been through during Theoden’s ensorcelling. I feel we never got that from the Eowyn’s arc during the movie, but I expect we’ll see some of this in the EE.

Overcome while watching it – I need to see it a few more times to sort things out.

Emotional responses:
[ul][li]Silent sobbing upon Théoden’s, “Ride to ruin, and the ending of the world!” Nothing like a good hopeless charge to get me all sniffly.[/li][li]Gandalf’s description of Valinor to Pippin.[/li][li]Sam’s charge up Barad-dûr. “I cannot carry it, but I can carry you.”[/li][li]Also, “Mr Frodo, please don’t go where I can’t follow.” Louder weeping here.[/li][li]Pippin’s song during Faramir’s charge to death: “Mist and shadow / Cloud and shape / Hope shall fail / All shall fade.” Who knew Billy Boyd could sing?[/li][li]Frodo’s sailing into the West – Annie Lennox’s song here is just gorgeous. Open, unrepentant tears. My only hope is that it’ll be expanded a little in the EE.[/ul][/li]
After leaving the theater, I felt spent. Just flat exhausted, and I saw it mid-morning. I need to see it again to process anything further.

I saw it last night. My overall impression is that I was simply enthralled by it. The 3 1/2 hours passed amazingly quickly. I plan to go and see it again this weekend, and fairly regularly for as long as it’s in theatres.

I didn’t cry, even though I expected to (and took a packet of tissues to the theatre with me in anticipation). I suppose it’s because the scenes I am most moved by in the book–Frodo’s “death” at Cirith Ungol and Sam’s subsequent rescue of him at the tower–went by so quickly that I didn’t have time to work myself up emotionally into them. This is not to say that both scenes weren’t very well done… just very compressed. I was, however, moved to whisper “I love Sam” twice: during his fight with Shelob, and just before he picked up Frodo to carry him. Sam has always been my favorite character, and this has not changed.

I was a little worried that Merry and Eowyn wouldn’t get to have their big moment, and was delighted when they did. I’m also happy that they built up the relationship between the two a little beforehand, and showed how frightened the two of them were when they were about to go into the battle they so much wanted to join.

There are a lot of missing things that I’m pretty blase about since I assume that they’ll show up in the extended DVD: Gandalf confronting Saruman at Orthanc, Denethor’s palantir (and didn’t Billy Boyd say something about Denethor believing that Pippin has the Ring?), Eowyn and Faramir.

I did mist up a bit at the very end, but I also think that they didn’t show clearly enough how much pain Frodo was still in. He mentions his shoulder hurting at one point, but it sounds more like an ordinary ache from an old wound than something that cuts down into his heart and soul and makes his life no longer bearable. I would have liked to see him having something similar to the bad spell he has in the book on the anniversary of the Ring’s destruction. Maybe this will also be in the extended version?

Squeegee: I may be wrong, and I’m on my way to look it up, but my memory is that she begs to follow him in order to die, not in order to be his wife.

I didn’t get to Faramir in my comments above. Eowyn and Theoden were both victims of Wormtongue, and only Theoden was healed in Rohan. It was probably the press of time, but Gandalf talks perceptively of Eowyn’s hurt AFTER she kills the Witch King, not while he is still in Rohan. She wanted to die, and was bitter about being saved. Faramir brought her back.

Faramir is the perfect romantic hero. Aragorn is far from handsome, and gloomy more often than not (hard life, etc., I hope being king cheered him up a bit). Faramir is handsome and charming. He is well educated, loves poetry and learning (I bet he’s a great dancer and can sing reasonably well), a brave and skilled warrior, a gifted and inspiring leader of men. She is a woman he can admire, one who has also faced the enemy and won, who can understand what he’s been through, watching a beloved father[figure] be corrupted by the enemy, beautiful, and who needs his help. It’s a perfect match. I have always thought that Eowyn did much better than Aragorn at the end.