Reverse Racism in Jazz?

Great Debates
1

Alright, what can I say? I’m doing a research paper for school, and figured that a thread might be a way to both start an interesting debate while at the same time getting some more sources on the subject. That said, on to the topic:

To what extent have whites been excluded from performing jazz on the profesional level due to an idea of “reverse racism”? In other words, have whites been exluded from things simply because they are white?

If so, when did this begin to occur? In my research thus far, it seems that jazz started out as a fairly equal opprotunity forum, where whites and blacks could perform the new music together. If anything, blacks were discriminated against due to the common view of the times. If there was a “turning point” of sorts, when did it begin to occur, and at what times was it most prevalent?

Forgive me if this topic’s been done before, I just thought it was an interesting one, hence the choosing of it for my paper. So far I haven’t had the chance to do any major research, but I’ll try to chime in every now and then.

2

As I said in the other post. Its not reverse racism. Its racism.

3

My only advice would be not to use the term “reverse racism”. The term is incorrect.

reverse \Re*verse", a. [OE. revers, OF. revers, L. reversus, p. p. of revertere. See Revert.] 1. Turned
backward; having a contrary or opposite direction; hence; opposite or contrary in kind; as, the
reverse order or method.

ra·cism (rszm)
n.

    1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a
       particular race is superior to others.
    **2.Discrimination or prejudice based on race.**

By definition “reverse racism” denotes a lack of prejudice or discrimination.

I wish that people would stop using this term. Racism is racism.

As to the question as to whether or not there is a racism directed towards whites in the field of Jazz I have no clue. Perhaps a search on jazz musicians might get one a decent sampling, one could then compare numbers of whites vs blacks.

4

Awfully sorry about the use of the term. I guess I used it to distinguish more between racism against whites in jazz and racism against blacks in jazz, since there is both. However, and I’m sorry if this sounds wrong, racism against blacks seems to be the “conventional” racism, in that when one brings up the topic of racism, it usually brings discrimination against African Americans to mind. However, since my topic is on racism against whites in jazz, I felt I had to distinguish somehow.

I now understand I should have just said “racism against whites in jazz?” instead, and humbly apologize.

5

I believe it started in reaction to Kenny G.

6

Now that we’ve sorta covered the definition of racism vs. reverse racism, back to Jester’s original question. . .

Yeah, it happens. At least it’s happened to me and I’ve heard that it happened to others.

Not to hard to believe. Musicians are people (really!) and subject to the same prejudices and bigotries as anyone else. I’m a bass player of Norwegian/Irish descent (in other words, I glow in the dark) and early in my career I was playing in funk and fusion bands where I was often the only white guy in the band, or at least the rhythm section. There was one drummer who simply didn’t think a white bass player could play funk grooves. He used to express that opinion forcefully on a crash cymbal about 6 inches from my head. Funny thing was, about the third gig we played together, it “clicked” and we became one of the better bass/drum teams in town and fast friends.

So while there are certainly examples of racism in music, it is also a field where the objectives and goals are pretty universally understood and if a player is good, then s/he is usually welcome regardless of race.

As for famous black players that have discounted white musicians, I think both Miles Davis and Charles Mingus done it, but I can’t cite any evidence and they both have worked with white players, so I may be full of crap. If so I aplogize in advance. (“Dumb honky”)

(P.S. No need for racism to hate Kenny G. Sentience is enough of a reason.)

7

This is one of those questions that starts out with a lot of heat, because, on the surface, it is taken as an affront against any human being expressing themselves in any artistic means they find suitable. Of course, people now see the basic truth of equality in mastering any endeavor.

In Ike’s Jazz Thread, I brought up a comment by Albert Murray regarding his “Third Line of Jazz”. On the surface, this can be construed as “reverse racism”. But, it ain’t necessarily so. Murray’s viewpoint is that jazz is not just a musical style, but is a way of looking at the world from the particular African-American vantage point. Not only in the notes played, but in the whole context of the playing; from where it was allowed to be played(where people were freely allowed to be themselves), to the expression of that culture in dress, dance, and language. I think that this is something we, in a much better, freer time, tend to underestimate.

In our time, equality is pretty much an accepted idea. But to Black musicians trying to make a living a few decades ago, it was a hard row to hoe. Better than many of the alternatives, but, in touring,they were faced with a lot of unfair practice and hardship. In that light, people tended to bind tightly out of the necessity to survive, and allow a leg up to those suffering under the same conditions.

As to the term “reverse racism”, I think that a valid meaning would have to be whether or not the designation of race disallowed one from gaining proper advantage, based on merit, in the prevailing culture. Black musicians have had to deal with the powers that be: recording companies, club owners, media, and the highway patrol & hotel keepers, as they’ve practiced their art, in a way that white musicians have not. Again, these are conditions now fading into the past, but unfortunately, have been a hardship and embittering experience to many musicians.

I’ve interviewed and spent a good deal of time with older blues musicians, and no one says that white musicians can’t play. Anyone with an instrument is welcome on equal terms. What is asked is that the music is given it’s just appreciation as to where it comes from, and that the originators be given their due. It’s happening now, but that’s a fairly recent development.

From what I’ve learned, often the hard way, I am continously amazed by what has survived of African spirituality in this country. The music is key to that. It isn’t just entertainment, it is an integral ritual (with a knowledge base so different from the European) means to transcendence that has endured immense obstacles in survival. And, not only has it survived, but it has truly transformed American culture.

For your research, Jester, I’d suggest these two:

Stomping The Blues, by Albert Murray

Cats Of Any Color:Jazz, Black and White,by Gene Lees

As well as:

The All-American Skin Game, by Stanley Crouch

Black Nationalism and the Revolution in Music, by Frank Kofsky

The Souls Of Black Folk, by W.E.B. DuBois