Interesting post – thank you, e(fam). I am one of those fortunate riders who’s been riding for 30 years, for 100,000+ miles, with no accidents. My motorcycles are quiet – no loud pipes. I’ve been riding BMWs for 25 years.
I like the bit about riding a cop look-alike bike being a noticed threat, too. Thanks again for this post.
I think our exchanges have become a bit rancourous. I’d like to dial that back.
That the article was written by a couple of lawyers is irrelevant. The authors cited a study by the EPA, and the EPA found no evidence to support the idea that ‘loud pipes save lives’ (quoted in the post). In science, a hypothesis is an ‘educated guess’. Hypotheses can be shown to be incorrect. I would not go so far as to say that loud pipes never save lives; but in the context of the discussion ‘loud pipes don’t save lives’ means ‘loud pipes do not significantly reduce the incidents of cars hitting motorcycles’. ‘Loud pipes don’t save lives’ is not scientifically accurate, but it is adequate shorthand when everyone understands that the discussion is about the larger trend.
Now, I have posted an article that cite the EPA (generally considered a respectable source) found no evidence that making motorcycles quieter would result in more collisions. All any of us are asking is that when someone says that loud pipes, as a rule, do save lives, the assertion be backed up with evidence from a reliable source. If you, or anyone, can provide a link to a study – even if the footnotes aren’t easily searchable on a computer, as long as they point to a reliable source – that invalidates the EPA study, then the evidence will be considered. The EPA study was from 1980, so one would expect there to have been ample time for a contradictory study to have been made.
Incidentally, the latest date I can find in the article is 2007. The authors mention ‘sport bikes’ in the 1980 EPA study. Sport bikes, as we know them today, did not come into being until about 1986. I personally find the authors’ use of the term to be sloppy. There were high-performance motorcycles in the ‘70s, but they were not ‘sport bikes’. I would be curious as to what the EPA meant in their study, since the authors’ term is anachronistic. That is tangental to the discussion though, since the EPA were studying the loudness of motorcycles.
IIRC, my Enduros had magnetos. My first one, which I got for my 12th birthday, was always fouling its plug. We put a hotter plug in it, and put a second plug in the other hole so I could switch if the first one fouled.
Maybe. I saw a documentary about aerial combat in Vietnam. A pilot was nearly shot down by a SAM. When audio recordings were played back, the missile warning tone could clearly be heard. But in the heat of the fight, with all of the other auditory and visual stimuli, the pilot simply didn’t register it. But I don’t think car driers have anywhere near the stimuli that would cause them to tune a cue out. My personal hypothesis is that either they’re not paying attention (more on that in the next paragraph), or they are fooled by the visual cue. Motorcycles are smaller than cars. Since they are smaller than cars, and since car drivers are used to looking for other cars, they may perceive a motorcycle as being farther away than it is. They may see a headlight approaching, and it doesn’t register that it’s a small, close vehicle; they subconsciously perceive it as a car-sized vehicle that is farther away. That’s just my hypothesis, and I don’t know if it’s ever been tested.
The larger problem, in my opinion, is that many car drivers aren’t actually ‘driving’ their cars. They are what I call ‘Left Seat Passengers’. That is, they are sitting in the driver’s seat and have a steering wheel in front of them; but they are mearly going along for the ride. As I mentioned earlier, I have well over 100,000 miles of experience riding motorcycles in L.A. traffic; and I’ve had ample opportunity to observe car drivers. I’ve noticed many of them staring straight ahead with a glazed expression on their faces. I’ve seen them start when brake lights illuminate ahead of them, even when there is ample room. I have had them attempt to change lanes without looking (while I was on a motorcycle or in a car) while I was occupying that space. I think many drivers are simply not paying attention. I started riding when I got a mini-bike for my fifth birthday, graduated to a proper motorcycle, rode Enduros off-road until I got my license, and then started riding on the street. Riding off-road taught me to look ahead to see what’s coming, and honed my reactions to deal with rapidly changing conditions. My flight instructor’s shouts of ‘LOOK OUTSIDE THE AIRPLANE!’ (we didn’t wear headsets then) still echo in my brain. My first cars were sports cars, and in my teens and 20s I drove them like sports cars. All of my experience pointed to paying attention to what was going on around me, and this applies to cars too. I think these LSPs I see have never learned situational awareness. They get in the car and the car takes them where they want to go as if they are on autopilot. Most drivers are unfamiliar with motorcycles, and they are too occupied with whatever is going on in their own heads to bother to look for them.
I haven’t followed the entire thread, but would like to address the OP (quoted here). I’ve ridden quiet motorcycles for 30 years and like the OP have often wondered why the Harley riders, especially those with loud pipes, rev their engines when stopped. IME it’s usually Harleys. Is it because they’re thinking, “Hey, look at me!”?
I think not. I’ll address the cruiser bikes here, and not the sport bikes with loud pipes.
A while back I took a few Harleys out on test rides. They were stock bikes with stock pipes from the dealerships (San Francisco, and San Jose). Before long I realized that I, too, was blipping the throttle when stopped. Why? Because to me it felt and sounded cool. That’s the reason. My reason, anyway. The single pin crankshaft 45° V-twin OHV motor idles roughly, because that’s how it’s engineered. It has an idle sound that no other engine type makes. I’ve read it described as follows, and to me this is a pretty good description of it: the distinctive “POTATO - POTATO - POTATO” sound. When accelerating, the sound only gets better. The rider can hear and feel the power. It’s a rush that appeals to the rider’s senses and emotions. It’s pretty cool. You ought to give it a try if you can. If you know a Harley owner, ask him or her for a ride on it. Better yet, ride one yourself if you can.
In my 30 years and almost 200,000 miles of riding, and limited experience as an MSF RiderCoach – Motorcycle Safety Foundation; and no accidents, I’ll add; loud pipes do not save lives. Many studies support this. It’s been expounded on upthread.
This post, from a long-time BMW rider, and for my money they are the Best Motorcycles in the World. Sure, I get annoyed by loud pipes as much as the next person. But the “Harley thing”? The Harley mystique? I get it.
I completely agree with what you are saying. My argument is that like brake lights, loud pipes in SOME instances, will draw the attention of said drivers to the motorcycle. That, I guess, is my only argument, but if correct, it helps in the loud pipes save lives debate. You just said, “I’ve seen them start when brake lights illuminate ahead of them, even when there is ample room.”, and that’s the way I feel about loud pipes.
I have no idea what LA traffic is like, I have only seen it on tv, but I am going to guess that you have a lot of traffic lights. People who are stopped at a red light wait for the light to turn green before proceeding. Here where I live, we have one set of lights, the rest are stop signs. I think that the mindset is completely different at a stop sign as opposed to a red light, where the decision to go is at the drivers discretion. Maybe the opposite driving conditions is why we have differing opinions.
I see it as riding down a long straight street and some driver sitting at a single stop sign, perpendicular to the street I am riding down, finishing a text or otherwise being distracted,then pulling out without looking. It’s not that uncommon here, and what I am saying is that the sound of the pipes bouncing of the houses, curbs, other vehicles, etc. may draw the attention of the driver enough to keep them from pulling out in front of you. In a big city I would think that people would for the most part obey the traffic lights and if someone completely blows a red light at 30 miles an hour at the last second, there is really not much a motorcyclist can do.
I hope you can try to envision my scenario and I really look forward to your reply.
I think they were referring to bikes like the 1980 CBX.
I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t agree with it in the majority of cases. When I’m at a stop sign or light, and there is a loud motorcycle opposing, the unmuffled pipes are not a factor because they are pointing away from me and are not loud from my position. The noise from crossing motorcycles is also not ‘loud’ until they are already in the intersection. The only time they are ‘loud’ from my position is when they are nearly abeam, or in front of me. As I said, this causes physical discomfort.
Yes, there are a lot of traffic lights in L.A. That’s why, when I lived there, I avoided surface streets. But don’t think the freeways are any less crowded. My commute was 42 miles from my apartment, and commuting time on the 405 is hell. Fortunately, L.A. and Orange County are in California, where lane-splitting is legal. In the early-'90s I read an article in a motorcycling newspaper that the California Highway Patrol conducted a study that said, ‘lane splitting is not particularly unsafe’. (They didn’t say it was safe; just that it wasn’t as unsafe as car drivers seem to think.) I often had three feet or more between cars. Most California drivers are aware that lane-splitting is legal, and many will move aside to give the motorcyclist more room. (On the other hand, a few are utter jerks.) Splitting lanes requires the rider’s undivided attention. While many motorists are aware that lane-splitting is allowed, and many are vigilant and even considerate, most – or at least many (in my experience) – are ‘left seat passengers’. The rider needs to be ready for anything, and there is little time to do anything about it. (Note: I felt safer when I was abeam a car or two, as car drivers were unlikely to decide to change lanes at that moment. Secondary note: I’ve found it’s safer to ride faster than prevailing traffic when not splitting lanes.)
Consider that type of riding. You’re riding between lanes of traffic with a foot or so of clearance on either side. The motorists are either not paying attention, or have their attention focused in front of them. Modern cars are pretty well insulated against outside noise; and most drivers have their windows up, presumably using air conditioning. It’s a safe bet that they are listening to the radio, chatting on a mobile phone, or conversing with a passenger. They’re not going to hear a Harley with straight pipes until the bike is nearly next to them. If the cruiser is splitting lanes, they are doing it slowly because they are wider than other types of motorcycles. So all they are doing is subjecting drivers who are not a factor to obtrusive, annoying, and for some people, physically discomforting noise. If the noise doesn’t catch the attention of drivers until after the motorcycle has passed or is about to pass (i.e., the car is no longer a factor for the rider), then the loud pipes serve no safety purpose.
Yes. Each type of bike provides for a totally different sensory experience. Cruising around at low speed where I still have the thumpity-thumpity is quite the satisfactory experience.
I do not, or have not, ever blipped my throttle unless I did a partial stall of the engine and had to recover.
I’m kind of old now & I still hear bikes facing me, or pointing any which a way all the time.
Now I don’t drive with head phones or the radio on 99% of the time but where I won’t hear a BMW, I will hear a non stock HD or any
other bike with loud pipes.
I sometimes do not notice a faster bike who is speeding on the interstate if I am having to watch traffic ahead but that applies to car speeders also.
Stereos that make me vibrate are a PITA but do not happen so much as to make me an asshat about it. Same for motorcycles.
Also, IMO, anyone who claims that just because it works for them, that it is the correct answer for everyone else has no tolerance for others ideas, much like politics, religion, color, or anything else.
So, those that want people punished ( restricted ) over loud pipes, paint jobs, stereos, etc., are the very people I ignore or actively tweak.
Every rule or law infringes on someone. People try to compromise, but when you are an ‘absolute’ it reflects more on your failings than it does on those you are attacking.
There is no study I have ever heard of that says that complainers & rigid thinks are better drivers.
Just as an aside, I would like to ride with you all and see how many motorcycles you are aware of at at time. And when you become aware of them. Also to see how you behave around pedestrians when they are in the right & when they are in the wrong.
Also how you drive when near any brand of motorcycle other than you own. I think an impartial video camera would prove that what you do & what you preach is often two different things.
YMMV
Lifelong rider here. I formerly rode dirt and sound was not an issue due to being far from the public. My street bike (sportbike) has a nice aftermarket can which is certainly a bit louder than stock, but not annoyingly so unless you really are twisting it. At 16K rpm I really dont think one could say a stock exhaust would be “quiet” in any case. I make an effort to keep revs and thus noise low around town. I am bothered to no end by Dbags on sportbikes AND Harleys racing streetlight to streetlight and revving while stationary like damn morons and wish to distance myself as far from that behaviour as possible. Obviously their dicks are a but undersized or the ego is a bit oversized in these cases. If your bike won’t idle I laugh at you profusely for your lack of mechanical skill.
The whole loud pipes saving lives thing…Sure probably a few accidents are avoided where a distracted driver IS made aware of a nearby bike because of the sound…In general though there are only 3 things to save your life on a bike…1. Know how to ride, including emergency braking and maneuvers. 2. Drive VERY defensively ALL the time. 3. Wear your gear! This means full helmet, leathers, and proper over the ankle boots.
Interestingly, the reason I and many other sportbike riders ax the stock exhaust is for weight savings. If I recall, my aftemarket system lightened my bike by about 20 pounds, or almost 5%. Trust me, on the track doing 275km/h exhaust note is secondary to wind noise, for the rider at least.
Cool, thanks for setting things straight. I always thought (or guessed) it was for better performance, like allowing the engine to breathe more freely.
Ignorance fought!
Well that can be part of it, but on sportbike engines anyways the gains are very small, and may even shift the torque curve in an undesirable way, especially if the bike is intended mostly for use on the street, as Im sure most are.To see appreciable gains(which on a 130bhp sportbike engine might total 3-5hp) requires a custom fuel map for the ECU, produced on a dyno with the help of a fancy computer program. A track bike will benefit much more from the weight loss, as it helps not only on acceleration, but turn-in and braking as well.
BTW, the South Park clip linked above is hilarious. Politically incorrect but hilarious, none the less. I sent it to an HD riding friend and he promptly forwarded it to all his HD friends. Its safe to assume I won’t be getting many beers bought for me this summer.
I also think that SP clip is both hilarious and accurate to a certain degree.
Any ways, I’m in the process of reading that paper that was linked in Post #61. So far, I don’t like it, in that it has bad form for an academic paper. Sure, he has a lot of cites but they are not relevent to his discussion. Also, the LPSL’s section is quite small and is inconclusive.
If we are to be strictly speaking of whether or not “Loud Pipes Saves Lives” then we need to find documents that pertain to that argument exclusively. PDF from Post #61 is not a good document to use for this argument as it is about the impact of loud pipes on the “environment” and how it should be regulated. Less then 5% (350 of 9000) of the words of that document pertain to LPSL’s. I’d suggest with looking at cite number 43 as a start:
I have not read that one yet, might be hard to find as it is dated. But, that was the only pertinent cite.
Agreed. I’m so used to riding with all of my gear that it actually feels *wrong *if I don’t have it all on.
That’s actually the main reason I want to replace my pipes. I can feel my VTX 1300t pull to the right due to the weight of the stock pipes.
So if loud pipe save lives, why do ambulances have mufflers? 
Loud pipe threads always do.
Oh, yeah. I had a Sportster many, many years ago that had a mag. And no electric starter. Getting that thing to run right was impossible. And starting it was a truly unpleasant experience, even when it was hot.
Here’s the link, didn’t get a chance to read it yet.
http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/proficient_motor/PMC03A.pdf
Turns out the link I supplied is only one page, sorry.
Here’s the other two pages here:
http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/proficient_motor/PMC03b.pdf
PDF s by the way
If hearing other vehicles and audio awareness is so important for road safety, isn’t that an argument against loud pipes? I know when I’m on my bike*, I constantly keep aware of what the other drivers are doing by listening to them. If my bike were as loud as an unmuffled Harley, there’d be no way I could possibly do that, and I can’t see how being unable to hear anything else on the road could conceivably make me safer.
*Not a motorcycle-- the manly kind of bike. You know, the kind that you use your own muscles to move. We’re even more invisible than motorcycles, and believe me, we know about watching out for the other driver.