Hi Fluvly
I’d like some credible peer reviewed data or credible government report that indicates ‘loud pipes save lives’. Do you have any? Do you know where I can find any?
I would very easily change my mind and support your view if I saw incontrovertible evidence that would allow me to.
Nope, not for me anyway. Last year my ENT said after a hearing test that I still had the hearing of a child, which I must admit surprised me after years in the bar band and recording business and the bikes and loud car stereos.
I’m not arguing that there should be no upper limit on the noise, it just drives me crazy that my point of more noise increases awareness continues to fall on deaf ears. Also I don’t live where you guys do so that may be a factor, my town and the nearby towns and villages and the one city have a combined population of about 100,000. I’m pretty much a live and let live kind of guy, so loud bikes, car stereos, backyard parties, the guy down the road (who i have never met) working on his stock car does not bother me. These things happen at all hours of the day and night here but it is what it is, I’m sure I do things to piss people off, but nobodies complained yet. I guess I could understand it if someone was sitting in front of my house for an hour with the car stereo blaring at three in the morning, but if they drive by and keep going it’s no biggie.
I have personal experience. When I ride a quiet bike I notice more people right on my ass. I also have people use that “extra” space in my lane to merge and move around others. I assume this is becuase they 1) Do not realize that I am there 2) Are major assholes.
When I ride my HD, with “straight shots” people are several car lengths behind me at all times. I don’t have people swerving into my lane as they know I am “somewhere” and seem to be more attentive to the fact that a smaller object such as a motorcycle is within vicinity.
The only way to prove any of this with some sort of verifiable data would be with traffic cams. Have two bike that are the same and two riders dressed the same. Make one bike loud and keep the other stock. Then, record, watch, collect data and count the near-misses, tail gating, etc.
As a side note, related to my HD bike above: a lot of people don’t realize that a motorcycle stops much faster than a car or truck. Therefore, when we ride we have a tendancy to brake a little later as we have a shorter stopping distance. The smart rider accounts for this and brakes as if they were driving so that the person behind does not have to slam on the brakes. Or, bump you, which has happened to me several times in the DC area. Hence: the loud lives saves lives statement.
I’m looking, but, oddly enough, I have not been able to come across any articles that say they don’t help, except of course for the one cited earlier which really in no way says they don’t. The only common argument that I have found so far it that the motorcycle exhaust point toward the back of the bike, which realistically is not an argument.
electronbee
Finally, the troops are coming…don’t know how much longer I could have held them off. lol
Yes. But, it would be called a variable back-pressure muffler. They are use din both cars and bikes. They make them for both 2 and 4 cycle engines as well. The 2 cycle is simple and is basiclaly a baffle with a spring based mechanism that has a pre-load. As the back pressure increases the baffle moves and it alters the volume of the expansion chamber. A lot of hobbyists use this on their RC cars and such. For 4 cycle, they have a valve, The valve can be a flap or on motorcycle I have seen a rotating valve. It’s cylindrical with about 2/3 removed. At lower RPM’s where you want a little back pressure to build up resonance and push some hot exhaust into the cylinder, it mostly closed. As you increase RPM the valve rotates allowing a decrease in backpressure and faster evacuation of the manifold. This allows for faster spool-up and some increased HP gain.
It’s all real simple and something that was devised like, decades ago. Just, only fairly recently implemented in the mainstream.
stolen shamelessly from a philosophy text:
In this case, X = Loud Pipes Save Lives.
Here’ I will help out by substituting LPSL (new acronym alert) for X
The burden of proof is always on the claim that LPSL exists rather than on the claim that LPSL does not exist. It is a fallacy to claim that LPSL exists unless you prove that there is no LPSL. What is improper is for a person to claim that “LPSL exists” and when asked to prove it, then the person who made the claim uses as a defense of “LPSL exists” the next assertion that no one has proven that LPSL does not exist.
So, as stated earlier in the thread, you make the claim the loud pipes save lives, we say prove it. Asking us to prove a negative places an unfair burden of proof.
Just like this example.
All Harley-Davidson riders have mommy issues. I have nothing to back that up, but I’ve heard lots of people say it, so it must be true. It’s also true that you can’t prove it’s NOT true.
So my statement about the mommy issues of Harley riders stands equal to your loud pipes argument. Does that work for you?
Proceed.
Quote:
The burden of proof is always on the claim that X exists rather than on the claim that X does not exist. It is a fallacy to claim that X exists unless you prove that there is no X. What is improper is for a person to claim that “X exists” and when asked to prove it, then the person who made the claim uses as a defense of “X exists” the next assertion that no one has proven that X does not exist.
So I suppose that by that logic, since the original comment that started all this…
…the burden of proof no longer lies with me.
Yes, I read the quote and changed the ideals a bit, but he started it.
Well, uh, okay. Guess I thought you would bring something a little more, but I guess not. So to summarize, you can’t prove your assertion, but that’s okay, because you didn’t start the discussion. Umkay.
So you got nothing.
Thought so.
Now go put some mufflers on that shitbox.
A citation was provided for how loud pipes have no significant effect on safety. Just because you don’t want to accept that cite doesn’t mean it wasn’t provided. You however have offered nothing to prove your argument.
In my opinion the loud pipes argument is simply bullshit. The noise from pipes is completely dependent on throttle. If loud noises are so important to safety why not some type of audio system that can be turned on and off as needed for safety. Then you could be heard even when traveling at lower speeds and you could minimize noise pollution when the noise isn’t needed for your safety.
As pointed out in this thread their are plenty of safety options that motorcyclists opt not to use. Since loud pipes seem to be priority over those other options for some bikers I think I can safely conclude the rest of us have to endure stupid motorcyclists with mommy issues because they are children that like the sound of their own toys and fuck everybody else.
I still haven’t seen anywhere in the cite provided that says loud pipes don’t save lives, if you can show me it I will be glad to take a look.
JFLuvly, can you please start including who it is you are quoting in your quote boxes? It would make the conversation easier to follow.
Yes, sorry, my bad. How do you do that without having to delete the posters info like number of posts etc.
I don’t know what you’re doing to get all of that info in your quote, but I just click the “Quote” button.
Here is the post where a cite was brought up
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16183850&postcount=61
Here is the post where you acknowledged reading it but have decided it isn’t acceptable to you
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16185963&postcount=77
By all means continue to pretend you didn’t see it and provide no citations for your augment to the contrary but I wouldn’t count on anyone here considering you credible as you have continually failed to meet the standards of general questions.
I have been copying and pasting in the quote box in the reply area.
For five years!
Huh, look at that it works, thanks!
I know post 61 quite well now, thank you. I am saying that I don’t see where in it that specifically says loud pipes don’t save lives other than the opinion of a lawyer and in the footnotes potentially #44, which I can’t find the article.
Heading out for a beer, I’ll check in when I get back.
It’s clearly obvious that this thread had derailed hopelessly.
First, to the OP, the blipping of the throttle on a motorcycle could harken back to the days when the ignition was controlled by a magneto instead of a coil and breaker (points or transistor). A magneto produces a hot spark at high rpm, but not so much at a low rpm. Sure, properly maintained, even the low idle rpm of the engine should be adequate to effect ignition, but the spark plug had to be kept in top shape. As the spark plug started to age, a rider would need to give the engine a little blip at idle to prevent it from dying (which would require a kick start, since these bikes had no battery for a starter).
On the LPSL issue, there are two facts that the LPSL fans fail to recognize. One, the volume of the exhaust can be at least a hundred decibels higher behind the bike than in front of it. It’s been brought up in this thread, but not even acknowledged by the LPSL crowd. But, it is undeniable, as anyone who has had either a Zoom-Splat or Hog zip by them on the highway can attest. Perhaps the people who do this are not part of the LPSL crowd that has posted in this thread, but they exist none-the-less, and the fact is clear; you can’t hear these numb-nuts until they pass you. Their loud pipes do not notify anyone in front of them of their approach.
The second fact, which I haven’t seen mentioned, is that the people who pull out in front of bikes don’t do it because they don’t have enough sensory signals to tell them that a motorcycle is approaching, they do it in spite of the sensory signals they have available. That is, it isn’t that they don’t see, hear, or smell them, but that they tune out these signals because they don’t see the motorcycle as a threat. Think about it. The driver of an automobile has way too many sensory inputs to give each one a analytical analysis, their brain filters out the “irrelevant” stuff to pay attention to that which will cause harm. With a loud motorcycle approaching from the side or behind, all the driver is going to be able to hear is the echo, and that gets tuned out, since it is just an echo, not a direct threat. If such a driver isn’t going to pay attention to 1000 lbs of chrome, black paint, and leather approaching them at 60 MPH, they’re not going to pay attention to an echo.
As a cite for this second “fact”, there was a newspaper columnist many years ago who wrote an regular column on motorcycle safety. He did an experiment where he had two motorcycles, one a big cruiser, with white fenders, black tank, and white hard bags, so it looked a bit like a cop bike. He would ride it wearing a dark blue jacket and a white helmet. No insignia or any markings to say he was impersonating a peace officer, but his bike sorta looked like a cop bike. His other bike was a sport bike and he would ride it with leathers and a black helmet.
Well, on the cruiser, people waited. Not only did they not pull out without looking, but even when they had plenty of time to pull out, they waited. On the sport bike, they ignored him. He kept statistics on it and it was clear; when he was perceived as a threat (ie, a cop), he was noticed and respected. When he was not a threat, he was ignored to the point of abuse.
Now, I don’t have the full citation for this, but it shouldn’t be that hard to find if someone wanted to do a little digging. I believe I read about it in Motorcycle Proficiency by (I think) David Hough, but this was 6-8 years ago and I’ve moved twice since I read it and don’t know where my copy is. A shame, though, as it is an excellent read if you are interested in why some riders can ride for decades without ever being involved in an accident while so many others die within their first two years of motorcycle ownership. There are just too many veteran riders with few mishaps to suggest they are just lucky; as mentioned upthread, they have learned to keep themselves out of the situations that kill others. And, interestingly enough, most of these 100,000 + milers ride with mufflers.
excavating (for a mind)
On your loud piped Harley? Just trying to put the complete visual stereotype together here.