Revving Motorcycles

Factual Questions
81

OKJ - I really am short of time and the Dopefest is this weekend and the salt finally is washed away and I can get my Road Kow ready for Spring but ------- since JB jumped back in I’ll add the two sents I originally sent to PAT via message. Done via copy and paste so it may look sloppy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by runner pat View Post
A bike sliding on it’s side on asphalt will go much further than braking from the same speed.
And 70% of your braking force on asphalt comes from the front brake; both true. But if you are already on the brakes and you know your bike is going to hit a solid object with speed left on it, are you better off staying on and possibly going for a uncontrolled flight and/or blunt force trauma or laying it down in a controlled slide and maybe missing - at least with your body?

Quote:
Originally Posted by runner pat View Post
The fact is, even if the other driver is totally at fault, it’s a rare accident that an attentive rider could not have avoided getting into the situation in the first place.
Also true. But as I say in the hunter education classes I teach, an accident being “one in a million” doesn’t help when you are the one. I am a better than average rider, a bit more veteran than average, and attentive to the point where I can count my lifetime “close calls” on my hands and still have enough fingers left for the controls. But as long as you ride, merde can occur, and nothing you do will prevent it.

I had a drunk block the road in front of me with his car. Long story short, his daughter ran off with a biker, he had been drinking at the Vets club all day, saw me approaching on the road and decided he wanted me dead. Luckily he timed his move a little early. I had three options basically - stay up and on the brakes and hit him with still about 30mph left, dodge left and hit a soft gravel lot probably crabbing the front tire and flipping the bike, or dodge right and go off a steep hill into rocks.

I took option 4 ------- braked as long as I felt comfortable doing, shedding what speed I could, and then laid it down. The bike, following the general laws of physics did hit him and possibly at a higher speed than if I had stayed upright. My back tire hit his front hard enough stand the bike back up and my highway peg punched a cool hole in his door. Stuff got bent bad and a couple things broken but the bike was basically ride-able. Me? Stopped shorter by a fair bit off towards the edge of the gravel about even with his trunk. Greater surface area and friction and all that. My leathers were a right off and I bought a new helmet that evening but except for a small patch where my one glove gave way, I walked off with all my skin and a couple broken fingers. Had I stayed on the brakes and t-boned him upright I’m betting both me and the bike would have ended up critical or maybe even totaled.
Again, I consider myself part of a lucky generation. Rode dirt up the farm a lot and then raced some dirt well before I turned 16 and got on the road. I had already crashed at speeds from “walking” to maybe 50 or so. Crashing wasn’t a totally new experience for me. Every move I made from the moment I went from brake mode to slide mode was planned and to some degree practiced. Is it my first option? Never! Not even second or third. But when all else fails ---------

82

In other words, ‘The data presented oppose my position. Therefore, it’s stupid.’ :rolleyes:

The .pdf file does not have links. That doesn’t mean the citations are unsearchable. We have these things called ‘libraries’, you see. If you want to read the articles in the footnotes, you can go there so that you can see what was printed in the document does indeed have a source.

If you read the article, then you would know that of course it’s one-sided and written by a lawyer. For one thing, the ‘Esq.’ after one of the authors’ name is a big hint that the guy is a lawyer. The article was written to address the problem of noise pollution caused by motorcycles. It proposes a way to bring the inconsiderate riders into compliance. But here’s the important part: I shows actual evidence to make its argument.

You have shown no evidence, other than some percentages that you made up on the spot for all we know. I could post that 93.6% of motorcycle riders that ride un-muffled machines are methamphetamine addicts, and 99.2% of them have served time in jail. It’s true! I just posted the percentages! Of course I didn’t provide a citation. Neither did you. I did provide a citation that says loud pipes do not save lives. If you want to refute that, then you have to find a reputable citation (there’s a reason I posted a link to a university, instead of an article on loudpipesdontsavelives-dot-com) that supports your argument.

83

I didn’t say that.

No need to be ignorant. I’m pretty sure my eastern Canadian library doesn’t carry 30 year old American EPA studies, although it might but I’m not going to check.

“In the United States, there are no titled gentry or nobility, but the suffix “Esq.” is commonly used to indicate that an individual is a lawyer, albeit not exclusively as there are no legal restrictions on the use of this suffix in the United States.”

No it does not, heres a quote from your cite:

“On the surface, it seems that the noise emitted by loud motorcycle exhaust systems would aid in conspicuity and cause more watchful driving by other motorists. Yet, since 1980, not a single
thoughtful study was completed to support this theory.”

That to me says that there is no data to support a claim that it does not help.

The next sentence is:

" To the contrary, crash data
shows that the two types of motorcycles that most often use loud pipes – cruisers46
and the more aggressive appearing sport bikes – are the two bikes most likely to be
involved in vehicular accidents.47"
First of all, the HURT report is from 1981 and these were probably the most popular bikes on the road. One would have to assume that they would be involved in more accidents.

For the record they define cruisers as"

“A cruiser, typically a Harley-Davidson, is a motorcycle with a V-twin engine with retro styling, a low
center of gravity and, usually, wide handlebars.”

And while many sport bikes have tuned exhaust, I really don’t know many that are that loud relative to the rumbling v-twins.

From the Hurt report:

  1. In multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle violated the motorcycle right-of-way and caused the accident in two-thirds of those accidents.

If they heard the bike would they have noticed it?

  1. The failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents. The driver of the other vehicle involved in collision with the motorcycle did not see the motorcycle before the collision, or did not see the motorcycle until too late to avoid the collision.

If they heard the bike would they have noticed it?
10. Intersections are the most likely place for the motorcycle accident, with the other vehicle violating the motorcycle right-of-way, and often violating traffic controls.
**
I would think that you would find this to be a lot of cars not yielding the right of way to bikes because they did not see that, but maybe if they heard them things would have been different.**
13. The view of the motorcycle or the other vehicle involved in the accident is limited by glare or obstructed by other vehicles in almost half of the multiple vehicle accidents.

If they heard the bike would they have noticed it?

  1. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is a critical factor in the multiple vehicle accidents, and accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets.

What about hearing the bike?

  1. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is most critical for the frontal surfaces of the motorcycle and rider.
    From you link:

“In the EPA’s view, with which the authors concur, “[m]otorcyclists who are depending on the noise generated from their machines to provide a necessary warning to other road users are gambling with their own safety.”45”

From the footnote:

“45 Id. (arguing that “[t]he noise level of a motorcycle would have to be substantially louder than most
current models to be heard by an automobile or truck driver, even in a light traffic situation”). This
speculative de minimis advantage was thought, correctly, to be outweighed by the public’s interest in a
noise-free environment”

de minimis…sounds to me like personal opinion, although they call it an advantage regardless of how small.

I can’t link to 44 at the end of this statement, although I would like to see it:

“In 1980, the EPA considered this type of argument and rejected it, noting that “[t]he
Agency has not found any evidence that the noise levels proposed by [the] EPA for
new motorcycles have any relationship to driver safety…”44”

Sorry if it’s a bit confusing as I was jumping around.

84

Hi JFLuvly

I will be very happy to change my mind if you provide credible citations that loud pipes indisputibly do save lives.

I haven’t seen any. Do you have any? That’s really all I need.

By credible, I would include govt studies or peer reviewed articles. I might consider other sources too, (Cecil for example). I won’t consider anecdotal evidence.

I’m a Ph.D. scientist with 20 years of experience in being shown I’m wrong and promptly changing my mind. I don’t mind being wrong…I do it all the time.

Just present to me the credible citations that allow me to change my mind and I’ll happily agree with you.

85

My part of the world at the time was the SF Bay Area and commuting between Santa Cruz and Santa Clara.

Your stop sign runner no doubt gave plenty of clues he wasn’t stopping-fast approach, a dipped front end that came back up before the line, I’ll bet he wasn’t looking in your direction rather where he was going( a sure sign he didn’t see the sign).

Your left turner-turned wheels, looking where he was turning to, not down the street.
One of my tricks for left turners was (when possible) to let other cars run interference, don’t be the guy out front or Tail-End Charlie.

Also, a daytime high beam does wonders.

I’m curious as to how you deliberately lay a bike down.

86

Your location, Calif. Nuff said.

Lay a bike down? Ever watch a movie? They will show you how. Ever ride on gravel? Ever watch motorcycle road racing?

Laying one down low side is not that hard to do. High side usually = pain & suffering much more so than low siding.

Your riding experience may vary.

87

Stunt men. Highly trained to produce a visual effect while not under life or death real life situation.

Gravel is not the choice of surface in the civilized world. Whole lot different than asphalt.

I wasn’t aware that the road racers were laying it down on purpose. I thought they were crashing.

How do you guarantee that an attempted low side doesn’t turn into a high side? Or is that something you practice on a regular basis? Must be hard on the body parts(both).

What does being in California have to do with anything?

88

I am curious what the naysayers think about the the American government saying that electric cars are too quiet and have to have some type of noise emitting from them. Apples to oranges, but the idea is the same…people don’t know they are there because they are so quiet. The louder the noise, the more people will notice them.

89

Yes they are crashing, but there is some level of control.

There is no guarantee, but once you separate from the bike, you just have to worry about you. Hooking your legs on the way over the handlebars is no fun, neither is slamming into said bars balls first or a fairing for that matter.

Two quotes come to mind:

“Dress for the slide, not for the ride.”

" Tuck and roll baby, tuck and roll."

90

None of this was true for me last year. The woman was stopped at the sign, then just pulled out in front of me.

91

So they should be loud enough to rattle windows and emit sound waves of enough intensity that they are felt physically?

Crashing is a total lack of control.

92

From the Hurt report:

"29. The typical motorcycle accident allows the motorcyclist just less than 2 seconds to complete all collision avoidance action. "

Does anyone have any idea how hard it is to react given this much time? I would much rather have them possibly hear me and not put me in that situation.

93

I do get passed by a lot of bikes with loud pipes. I don’t hear their pipes until they are past me. Thus, rather than the decision about “load pipes save lives” being left to the bikers who ride, it should be left to the drivers who can or can not hear the noise.

But it’s bullshit anyway. It’s there purely as a “look at me’ thing. Hell, if you really wanted a ride a motorcycle, you wouldn’t be riding a Harley anyway.

As for electirc cars needing some sort of sound, that’s for blind pedestrians, and the sound level suggested is very low.

94

I suppose you’re right, but doing the right thing while crashing is controllable.

95

Wow. I was, more or less, just venting with my OP but obviously side with the “louder does not necessarily equal safer” crowd. Even I admit that there is something cool or viscerally satisfying about loud, raw power. I can’t get enough of fighter jets in afterburner at an airshow. (And I am a glider pilot!) But I sure don’t want them passing over my house at 500’ at 2:00 am. I don’t know why the straight pipe/revving fans don’t just admit it. They do it because it makes them feel good and screw everyone else. Hiding behind the ‘louder is safer’ argument is like saying “I get stoned on a daily basis because its really just medicine for my anxiety, nausea, toothache and depression”. Just say “I like getting high!” No problem, I’m cool with that. Just don’t blow your smoke in my face while you’re doing it.

96

Yeah sure, I trust you to make decisions about my safety. I can’t trust that you won’t pull out in front of me.

Maybe on a highway, with a lot of wind noise. On an open road with some extra room I feel pretty confident in my abilities to avoid you if you pull out and cut me off. My biggest issue is with people pulling out of an intersection or a driveway in front of me at the last second.

I do not own a Harley, and chances are I never will.

97

I *have *pulled out in front of motorcycles. That’s why I know “loud pipes’ don’t help. Bikers do need to be aware and try to stay out of blindspots, especially while lane-splitting at speed.
No doubt you can avoid me. But how are your “loud pipes” helping you? I mean, except that you can’t hear the car behind you beeping to warn you they are there when you evade into their lane.

Since I can’t hear your "loud pipes’ except when we’re sitting still at a stop-light, or when you have already passed, exactly how do they help?

98

Hi JFLuvly

I’m looking for credible citations that support your view. Do you have any? Can you post them so I can consider that your position is logical and correct?

99

To use a metaphor: whispering, speaking and shouting are very distinct things.

I’m beginning to wonder if the “noise” isn’t such a big deal for some riders because their hearing has been impaired from a lifetime of loud activity. But if they heard what the people around them heard, they would be surprised.

From what tone I can distill from your writing, you come across as a really affable, good guy. And I absolutely mean that. So it keeps perplexing me when you seem to be advocating no upper limit on the amount of noise you think should be inflicted onto your community so long as you get to engage in one of your favorite activities the way you feel like.

I know that engaging in a debate about something you feel really strongly about is only going to harden your resolve, and any points to the contrary are going to fall on deaf ears (no pun intended). But once this thread has died down and forgotten and you’re out riding sometime, I just ask that you take a look at the faces of the people as you roll past them. If you don’t see any wincing or cringing, then I take back everything I said.

100

For sure this is a part of it, I love the rumble of a loud exhaust, but I still think that there is an added benefit of safety. This issue is even split in the biker world, and that’s who I would rather debate it with. Like I said before, if you don’t ride your opinion on whether it helps or not is invalid. You are still very much allowed to have an opinion on whether you like it or not.