[QUOTE=The Man In Black]
I say to keep it just the way it is. And I really think that if you took a poll, most of the US would also vote to keep it as it is now.
[/QUOTE]
Seconded. I like it in its current form well enough. Most classrooms don’t have a framed copy of the Constitution up on the wall; most do have an American flag. By saying the Pledge, you’re acknowledging the flag as a symbol of the republic, which is appropriate, since it’s probably the single most instantly-recognizable one there is. We open every Cub Scout meeting with the Pledge, which I appreciate. Of course, it’s a free country, and if you choose not to say it, so be it.
But don’t get me started on Bush the Elder using the Pledge as a political bludgeon in '88. :rolleyes: :mad:
Two sidenotes: Southern friends have told me that some die-hard, unreconstructed neo-Confederates omit the word “indivisible” when they say it. And an elderly friend told me that, before WWII, the appropriate hand gesture was not holding your right hand over your heart (or the Scout or military salute), but extending your right hand towards the flag, palm up. That was dropped when it seemed a bit too Nazi-esque.
Seeing as how I disagree with just about every phrase in the Pledge, I’m for scrapping it completely. Every time someone has suggested making it mandatory at my school, they have backed down when threatened with lawsuits.
I also think that an oath should be made with the full consent of the will. Mindless repetition of the Pledge robs it of any meaning whatsoever. Making children parrot it makes it a joke.
[QUOTE=Duckster]
It’s one thing to take a poll to solicit opinions on a subject; it’s quite another to take a poll to determine which civil liberties would be denied. I prefer a representative democracy and formal amendment process over popularity contests to determine my rights under the Constitution.
[/QUOTE]
"The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Pledge as the official national pledge on December 28, 1945.: - Pledge of Allegiance - Wikipedia
I don’t think it was an amendment. But it was democratically made the official pledge.
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the principles of enumerated in the Bill of Rights; and furthermore to Republic based upon the ideals therein; one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
[/QUOTE]
Your first sentence is tautological (it also contains an unnecessary “of.”) The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution; it’s just the first bunch of amendments to it. So you’re effectively saying the same thing twice; it’s like saying “I pledge allegiance to the Constitution, and to Article II of the Constitution.”
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
I hate attacks on the Pledge, but also acknowledge the rights of others. Where did we go wrong? Why do we have to accomodate every single instance of atheism, vocal minorities, etc?
Why did schools have prayer in the first place? Didn’t that enviornment foster a better class of graduates than the uber-secular one we have now?
This is from a serious religion-doubter. But there is no doubting the results. People rarely dropped out of school in the 1950’s versus now. Why is that?
Moratorium on capital punishment? God out of our schools? What explains the decline?
[/QUOTE]
I graduated high school in 1966, so I began my education in the 50’s. In a semi-rural public school, now part of Houston’s urban sprawl. The student body was white & Hispanic; now things are much more diverse & I’m glad of that.
We began each day with the Pledge & “My Country 'tis of Thee.” No daily prayer at all. The morning routine was just meaningless ritual–good practice for corporate life. (Although I wondered at the lyric “land where our fathers died”–because my father had died in a plane crash in Canada.)
There was the occasional prayer at special events–often, football games. But they always said “The Our Father” wrong. (That is, they used the Protestant version–I was raised Catholic.)
There were dropouts back then. Sorry to break it to you, but “Father Knows Best” was only a TV show. And Segregation sucked.
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
And an elderly friend told me that, before WWII, the appropriate hand gesture was not holding your right hand over your heart (or the Scout or military salute), but extending your right hand towards the flag, palm up. That was dropped when it seemed a bit too Nazi-esque.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps that provides us an opportunity to reflect on how disturbing these mass repetitions of slogans of fealty to the state can look when taken out of the familiar context.
My variation:
I pledge to support the rights enumerated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and to promote respect for those rights and freedoms.
[QUOTE=BwanaBob]
Pledging allegiance is not worship using any definition of worship that I understand or consider standard.
[/QUOTE]
They may not be precisely the same thing, but as I pointed out earlier, they are operating on near enough frequencies to one another as to cause interference.
And that’s really more the issue: is there good reason for conflict between one and the other? I said there is. Your response is welcome.
‘I pledge allegiance to the flag, when it’s convenient to do so. As for the republic for which it stands, and for God, it’s debatable, if there’s liberty and justice for all.’
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
They may not be precisely the same thing, but as I pointed out earlier, they are operating on near enough frequencies to one another as to cause interference.
And that’s really more the issue: is there good reason for conflict between one and the other? I said there is. Your response is welcome.
[/QUOTE]
I guess we have to agree to disagree. To me these two concepts have no similarity whatsoever.
[QUOTE=BwanaBob]
I guess we have to agree to disagree. To me these two concepts have no similarity whatsoever.
[/QUOTE]
This is GD, not IMHO. On one side, we have an assertion. On the other, we have an argument that that assertion is incorrect, with no rebuttal offered.