As you may have gathered, English isn’t my native language. That doesn’t stop me from trying to rhyme in it.
Question: If Bren doesn’t rhyme with Gran - and I can believe that - purists over here refuse to rhyme* ‘ei’** with ‘ij’, though they sound the same - * then how come **‘rhyme’ rhymes with ‘time’ **
not to mention words like: through - plough - though - [same letters, different sounds]
Help me out of my misery?
Your best bet is to find a rhyming dictionary. Libraries ought to have them. The English spellings are of essentially no help.
What’s even more exciting about rhyming in songs is that often only the vowel is rhymed. That’s not pure rhyme, but some songwriters fudge in that regard.
Could you give an example of English words in which ‘ei’ and ‘ij’ sound the same? Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any.
The answer to your question is that ‘rhyme’ and ‘time’ rhyme because they are pronounced with the same final phonemes. I’m no linguist, but the long-i vowel sound and the ‘m’ final consonant sound in both words are the same, so they rhyme.
In your example of ‘Bren’ and ‘Gran’, the vowel sounds are completely different, which is why they don’t rhyme.
Rhyming is all about the way things are pronounced, not how they’re spelled. So sometimes a poem written in Scotland will seem like blank verse to someone from California. Their pronunciation is so different the rhymes are unrecognizable.
Thank you ** Zeldar ** There’s even an online rhyming dictionary. But to me, that a bit of a problem, because *Saltire ** I’m dutch 
[ the ‘ij’ and ‘ei’ I was referring to rhyme in dutch] I can’t * hear the pronounced words.
I had no idea Bren and Gran sounded different. Thank you again.
If you don’t mind doing a little extra work you could combine that rhyming dictionary with a Nederlands-Engels dictionary which should give pronunciation advice that will make sense to you.
Alternatively, the Merriam-Webster online dictionary offers audible files so you can hear a word being pronounced. In fact M-W has a rhyming section, so you could do both jobs in the same window.
If it’s any consolation, some of us find the ‘through’, ‘plough’, ‘though’ business odd too.
Sorry, that link is broken. Here’s the M-W home page.
BTW, in English poetry anyway, one of the devices sometimes used is the “sight rhyme,” which is two words that have the same ending, but are pronounced differently–which could be the case in the English words mentioned in the OP. That is, they could be conceivably used as sight rhymes.
Thank you ** Everton ** and ** Earl Snake-Hips Tucker **. I’m learning a lot.
Still don’t know * why * Bren and Gran don’t rhyme, though. How about Flan and Pen? 
No, they don’t rhyme either. I’ve tried to hear those words pronounced in a Dutch accent and I agree they do seem closer than an English person would say them. I also tried them out on the Merriam-Webster page and they sound pretty similar there too (because it’s an American dictionary – the Oxford English Dictionary isn’t free).
It’s difficult to describe the difference without reference to words you’d recognise.
Does anyone have free online resource with audible versions in an English accent?
gum, you may very well hear regional accents come into play and rhyme those words you mention. Depending on the vowel sound involved, some areas draw little distinction (to the ear at least) between two or more of them.
A good example is the “Mary, merry, marry” group. In some areas you can’t distinguish the difference. Another would be “pin vs. pen” where they also may sound alike.
One of the most peculiar (to me anyway) is how the -og sound varies. You’ll find that fog, log, cog, hog may all sound alike, but then dog is usually different.
So many exceptions to spelling clues.
I would suspect that you would find areas of the USA where Bren and Gran DO rhyme!
I see. ;j Got to find those areas, huh.
**Zeldar ** To me, fog, log, cog, hog and dog sound exactly alike. Yep, I do have a lot to learn.
** everton** Yes, I tried it on another dutchie and he thought Gran and Bren rhymed perfectly. Must be our accents.
Thank you both again. I’ll do my best to become the next Ogden Nash.
So, if it’s Nash you’re emulating, you might try just leaving the vowels out. That way as long as the consonants are close, you could fake the rhyme. Worse things have been done.
Example:
There was a young lady from R-me
Who told her young sister she’d c-me
The sister repl-d
I thought you were fr-d
But the young lady said “Thanks all the s-me.”
hahahahahahaha, That’s great!
Glad you liked that!
Seriously though, gum, if you’re aiming for your poetry/rhyming to be “acceptable” to the academic critic (as opposed to being accessible to the pop culture) it would be wise to follow a rhyming dictionary for rhymes and a reasonably comprehensive (authoritative) dictionary for pronunciation(s).
The hog-log-fog thing is that in my region, dog is most often pronounced dawg. The others are pretty much as you’d expect, i.e., rhyming with each other.
Even well-known and respected lyricists cheat on rhymes from time to time, and in certain genres it’s not all that uncommon to bend rhyme in favor of a more “conversational” wording.
In short, don’t be a slave to pure rhyme, and things will “work” better for you.
You’ll also see “again” rhymed with other “ain” words even though it doesn’t really rhyme in most English dialects. I know the Beatles did it in at least one song. Most Americans pronounce the word as “a-GENN”
So would you pronounce “man” and “men” the same way?
And how about “woman” and “women”?
<whistles nonchalantly>
Does wish rhyme with ghoti?
Zeldar Nah, I purposefully didn’t use the word ‘poetry’. I’ll never be good enough for that. I like rhyming, though and I’m glad you think liberties are allowed. I’d love to hear more of your poetry. As for wish and ghoti; Hey, I’m not Bernard Shaw.
Spectre of Pithecanthropus [trying to find a rhyme on your handle] In English again rhymes with ‘slain’, right?
jr8 No, I wouldn’t. Is that the difference? ‘Gran’ has a long aaaa?
Thanks all.
You’d think so, and according to my dictionary that’s one acceptable pronunciation. It’s more commonly pronounced to rhyme with “pen” and “men”, though. In a poem, you could get away with either rhyme.
Basically, yes. “Gran” rhymes with “man” and “pan”. “Men” and “pen” rhyme, and I’m assuming “Bren” rhymes with both of them (although I don’t know any Brens personally).
This doesn’t occur in England or Ireland, to my knowledge: “dog” rhymes perfectly with all the other words.
gum, it might be useful to learn the pronunciations of the English language phonetic system. This will indicate the differences between the short “a” and the short “e” sound - they’re completely different vowels to my ear. I don’t know of any online phonetic resources, but maybe someone can suggest one that has audio files?