Wow the irony is rich, you idiot.
in their haste to defend Sen. Santorum…
Having problems with your own reading comprehension? Scroll up.
Please show me where I’m “defending Santorum”…the only thing I’ve said about him is to criticize him for his statement implying that Catholics don’t read the bible.
Brilliant…just brilliant you are.
:smack:
Well, personally, theoretically, my answer would be “Yes.” However, in actual fact, the answer to jews is yes. If you are a good jew, you need to good to shul every weekend, and read one chapter of the torah each week. After one year, you have read it once. After a lifetime, this gets to be quite a few readings.
And may I ask, beagledave, what the hell kind of stick it is you have up your ass that prevents you from communicating in anything but an insulting, condescending and obtuse way? This might have been an interesting debate, had you not barged in flinging uncalled-for beagle-poo all over the place.
Feh. I give up. I’ve explained myself and requoted myself over and over again, and he insists on coming in and insulting me and ignoring the debate at hand. He can go on misquoting me and misinterpreting me all he wants—if any of you have the energy for this, you can take up the OP if you want.
“Defend Sen Santorum”? :eek: Here’s my words, right here “In point of fact, I hold almost the exact opposite political beliefs as he does. Santorum may well be a lying sack of shit hypocrite- or a jackass, or even a bigot.” “Santorum’s political beliefs should be a fertile ground for PITing… PITing him for this is sinking to his level.” “Santorum may well be an asshole and a hypocrite…” I also said it seems the Senators rants go against the spirit of the teachings of Jesus.
Yep, that’s defending him, allright. :rolleyes:
Nor have you really explained your OP, other than to clarify one phrase “CAN ALSO BE”, which was never my point. My point is that your very title is disingenuous. You also show a poor grasp of knowledge about Biblical scholarship in that you seem to think that one has to have read every word in the Bible to have a good grasp of it’s contents and teaching. As has been said here over & over- one doesn’t have to read every word to understand the Bible and it’s teachings. Especially one doesn’t have to read every word in sequence, “cover to cover”.
We are here to fight ignorance. I’ll fight ignorance even when it attacks someone who I don’t like and rarely agree with. I am not 'defeding" Sen Santorum- I am fighting Ignorance.
The Torah is not the entirety of their Scripture. Unless modern Judaism has a completely different meaning of the word, the Torah covers only the* Pentateuch*, or the first five books of the Old Testament. That’s only about 1/4 of the OT, and then there’s the Mishnah, and the Talmud. Of course- one could get into a Talmudic argument over wh3ther or not the Talmud is 'scripture"…
Good thing that you didn’t FIRST say about me (and all Christians, Jews and Muslims and Pagans and …) err what was it?
Oh yeah…we have a “shaky grasp of reality” (and I guess we’re more prone to be lazy and hypocritical as well…and we’re not “good” Christians/Jews/Muslims unless we’ve read every single passage in our scripture)
Yeah good thing that’s not insulting or condescending… :rolleyes:
Lemme see that was your second “I give up” so far in this thread, right?
You’re still choosing to categorize me as “defending Santorum”…when that’s obvious that I was not doing so (I even went to the trouble of posting an immediate clarification to my first post in case some folks didn’t get that point…a shame you’re still choosing to ignore that).
Suppose that in some bizarro universe, a new statue is passed in which living or not living your life in accordance with the virtues described in Shakespeare’s Hamlet, Macbeth and Julius Caesar literally determined whether you would live or die. All you have ever read of these plays are the “to be or not to be” soliloquy, a Cliff’s Notes 2 page synopsis of each, and you know that somewhere in there are some witches with a cauldron and something about cowards dying a lot, and the stuff imparted by a teacher you only half-paid attention to, and yet now if you violate one of the Shakespearean virtues of these plays, you can literally be beheaded in the town square.
Would you:
1- Rely on your incomplete exposure to the plays and take a leap of faith that what you’ve been told about them is accurate
2- Would you read the plays from start to finish, read commentaries on them, read about Shakespeare and his times, read new translations, and become as informed as you possibly could?
Now, while it’s inconceivable that the above would happen, another book translated into English during Shakespeare’s life (as well as many many many other times before and since) determines in the minds of its countless millions of believers not whether you live or die, but whether you spend ETERNITY- an endless period of time- either in a paradise or being tortured and agonizing without respite in a literal fiery HELL. Would you not think that this is a million times more important than life or death, not just for you but for those you love? Would you not want to read it and see for yourself what it says? For all you know it may state flat-out “Don’t listen to priests and preachers… that’s the quickest road to hell” or “whatever you do don’t paint your house blue… I will send you to Hell in a Babylonian minute… I hate a blue house… I am the Lord, selah…” and you’re screwed because you never read what is available all over the Internet, at every bookstore and free-of-charge from a variety of organizations.
The Bible is of easily manageable length. There are actually “Bible in a Year” versions in which it’s divided into 365 parts. What possible justification could a person who bases their notion of right and wrong NOT read it? I totally agree with the “you’re not a good Christian/Muslim/etc. if you haven’t read the Holy Book”- it’s not to say you can’t be a good person, but you can’t be a good member of a particular religion unless you know its teachings, the context and all there is to know about them.
I’m an atheist and am very irked with myself for never having completed The Qur’an or The Book of Mormon. How the faithful can be so ignorant and unconcerned is something I’ve pitted before and will never understand. (And Santorum is one of the stupidest men I’ve ever read about not to be the recipient of a state appointed guardian.)
All you really need to know is “I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, and I regret all my sins, whatever they may have been.”
Rabbi Hillel also managed to get all of the Talmud and the Torah into one line, so…
Dr. Death, that has fuck-all to do with my statement. If a christian claims to be a good christian, he should back that claim up by being able to say that he has actually read the chronical of his religions history, the OT and the NT, together referd to as the bible.
If a jew is meant to be a good jew, he should be able to say he read the entire OT, minus the intentional minstranslation, often refered to as the torah. All the rest are requirement for good jewish scholars. It is also believed that it it ladable to read the books you mentioned, but that has no bearing on the fact that should a person claim to be a good jew, and yet admit to having never read the entire books of moses, never mind the order they read it it, I would laugh in their face. I also laugh in the face of those who claim to be jewish, and yet claim “to have accepted Jesus christ.”
Yes and no. In the narrow sense, you’re absolutely right: Torah refers to the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. In a general sense, the word refers to the entire body of Jewish teaching.
In addition to the written Torah, there was a body of tradition called the Oral Torah, which explained how to interpret the written Torah. This was captured in writing around the year 150 and known as the Mishnah.
Over the next 300-odd years, additional commentary on the Mishnah was collected, and this “latter-day” commentary is called the Gemorah. Together, the Mishnah and the Gemorah are referred to as the Talumd.
Ayn Rand even summarized her philosophy while standing on one foot.
"“Do not do to others what is hateful unto you. The rest is commentary, go and learn it.”
Yeah but she was hopped up on diet pills, so it didn’t count.
Should every good American read The Code of Federal Regulations?
Plus, she was short — low center of gravity, and all that.
That’s a whole other argument, but even so: how would you know that if you haven’t read the Bible?
Well I can’t speak for other traditions (besides the RCC), but your comparison is silly.
There is a world of difference between basic familiarity with the key books of the Old and New Testaments and just knowing a few famous phrases from Shakespeare.
Even the liturgy of the Catholic mass (which covers the Old and New Testament) does NOT cover every single passage in every single book of the bible.
Do I agree with Santorum that being Catholic implies that you don’t need to be that familiar with Scripture? no. (and I said so earlier).
Do I think that Christians (specifically Catholics…since that’s my tradition) SHOULD avail themselves of scripture study? Yes…I have, FWIW I think it’s a good idea.
Do I think that if I missed a few lines from the Book of Ruth, that I am therefore no longer “a good Christian?”, no.
I noticed that Eve punted on my question about knowledge of the framing documents. Can someone be a “good American”, “good Democrat”, “good Republican”, “good liberal or conservative” if they have not read every single document that I mentioned earlier in toto?
Why?
Specifically.
Assuming your laugh in their faces indicates your belief that they gave failed in an imposed duty… again. why? Specifically.
Dare I ask … why? Here I’m not asking because I don’t see any justification; to the contrary, I see plenty of contradiction here. I’m just curious which contradiction bothers you?
Theoretically, a Jew could say that he accepts Jesus Christ as the Messiah, although that would indicate a profound disconnect with what the vast majority of the Jewish world believes about the characteristics of the Messiah. But apart from that disconnect, what, if anything, about a Jew saying he accepts Jesus Christ makes you laugh?
No. However, they should be able to say that at one point in their life, they have read a history book. The situation is exactly analogous.