jayjay, you don’t have to go that far with analogies. The best one is still if he had chosen a racist preacher known for preaching that blacks are inhuman to “reach across the aisle” to racists (after having anti-miscegenation propositions on the ballot and passed by casually racist voters in several states). Blacks and other minorities would be terribly hurt and outraged, as would anyone sympathetic to civil rights and human decency. There wouldn’t be anywhere near the amount of “get over it” attitudes expressed.
The only difference is, homosexual’s civil rights aren’t considered important and their hurt and outrage can be easily dismissed.
I do understand your anger. I really do. In fact, I’m arguing with a couple of dent-headed apologists in GD right now who are defending the murderous rampage of General Sherman during the War Between the States. It’s annoying as hell. And I believe that there will be ample opportunity for people like Mike Rogers to meet with Warren and, in the context of a frank, civil discussion, air their grievances with him.
I admit that I’d be miffed at Obama for selecting an Indian hater to give his invocation, but in the end it is his. And I would take some comfort in the assurity that his selection is designed, at least in part, to begin an education process for those who defend the centuries of crimes against our inoffensive Indian nations.
One of the things I’ve learned very late in life (thanks in part to people like you and others at the Dope) is that battles need to be carefully picked. Knowing when to let it go — and I mean really let it go — has contributed more than anything to the fact that for me, there will be no more meltdowns. And so my heart goes out to you and yours. I don’t want to see you melting down either.
I hope that the education process is what will happen due to this choice. I don’t hold out much hope for that, knowing that Warren’s (and all the evangelical megapastors’) income and continued influence more or less depend on him delivering the red meat on the gheys to his congregation. There’s a quote about nothing being harder to convince than someone whose income depends on remaining unconvinced but I don’t remember who said it or how it actually goes.
No, that’s not “all” he’s done. In fact, he hasn’t ostracized anyone at all – that’s the point. Do you even know what that word means?
What large group of people has Barack Obama excluded from society, friendship, conversation or privileges? He may have unintentionally angered them, but he has not ostracized them.
If they choose to allow their outrage to overshadow their enthusiasm for this historic event, that’s their own fault, not Barack Obama’s.
I sure hope you’re not directing the accusation of not caring about gay people at me. I recognize that you are having trouble coming to terms with this, and I DO understand why it upsets you. But that’s why I linked to Obama’s Call to Renewal speech. I hoped you would read it – in its entirety. It is a beautiful illustration of the heart and mind of Barack Obama as regards how he thinks this nation should approach those with differing religious viewpoints – even and especially those views we find outrageous or contemptible. I had hoped that, had you had a better understanding of who Barack Obama is at his core, and how he makes important decisions like this, that it might – might – start to calm some of your anger. Right now you appear to be angry because you think this choice shows a lack of care or concern about a specific group of Americans; that he acted with intentional or knowing disregard. If I felt that that was what motivated his decision, I’d be pissed off, too.
But I believe differently. I believe he admires Rick Warren for what he perceives as the good works he’s doing in the world. I believe he recognizes the influence a man like Rick Warren has on a huge contingency in the United States. I believe he’s reaching out to not only Rick Warren, but to those people as well, in the hopes that by joining together we can start having the conversations we desperately need to have in order to effect the change we strive for.
As I said previously, I don’t like that he chose Rick Warren, either. But I’m trusting him to know what he’s doing, and why it might be the right thing to do at this time in history.
You’re going to win. Period, full stop. The momentum of social change is behind you, and you’re going to win. Which is to say, we are going to win. Gays, latinos, women, men married damn near forever, Americans without any particular stripe - we are going to win.
If the “Rev.” Warren spills his guts onstage and admits to being utterly and totally gay, you’re going to win. If he launches into a sulfurous Jeremiad condemning homos, lesbos, and masturbating like motherfuckers, you’re going to win. If he daubs himself with shit and sets his hair on fire, you’re going to win.
A jerk performing a minor evocative function at a formal event ain’t shit. Next to Prop 8, its nothing, and Prop 8 is only a setback, not a defeat. Its a rear-guard action by a doomed army.
It ought to piss you off, and then you ought to shrug it off. You’re gonna have to wait and see what happens anyway, so you might as well wait and see what happens. Regroup, organize, and continue the advance, you are going to win.
I can’t remember the exact event, but it was some big national/federal things. Three clergy were to give prayers, a rabbi, a Protestant, and a Catholic priest. The latter guy was Fr. Theodore Hesburgh, president emeritus of Notre Dame.
He was third in the lineup. The rabbi and the Protestant(Baptist I think) gave what I think of as “preaching prayers”, long-winded, more like sermons or political statements.
Hesburgh came to the mike, looked around sternly and pulled his glasses down and said “At a time like this I can think of no better thing to say than”…and he launched into the Lord’s Prayer. Then he sat down, after less than a minute in the “limelight”
Homosexuals. At least, he’s making it clear that he intends to continue to do so, by among other things inviting an anti-homosexual bigot.
Then you should be pissed off, because it does. What you and others are wilfully ignoring is that there is no middle ground here; no place to compromise. If you are pro-Warren, then you are anti-homosexual. Warren is their ENEMY, and a bigot; not just someone who has a minor disagreement.
And I’m told that the Nazi regime had a very enlightened forestry policy. That doesn’t make up for everything else.
And so what ? They have a bigoted viewpoint that should be dismissed out of hand, not given a Presidential seal of approval.
They are vermin, and should be opposed at every turn, not “reached out to”. “Compromise” with such people can only be achieved by enforcing the bigotry they so desire.
Sucking up to the bigoted right isn’t “leadership”. It is, however, exactly the kind of spinelessness I expect from the Democrats.
You are far more trusting of people than I am. What I think is that the rights of homosexuals have reached a high water mark, and the pendulum is swinging the other way. I consider quite possible that in twenty years or so we’ll see being homosexual made illegal again. And yes, I know the demographic arguments; but what usually really happens in the real world is those supposedly liberal youngsters become conservative bigots in their adulthood. Just as happened with the oh-so-tolerant youth of the 60’s.
Here is a link to a column today in the SF Chronicle, by a columnist who I usually find thoughtful. He generally displays what might be called “liberal” values, but I don’t think that colors this particular column.
Some representative quotes:
I just want to re-iterate something I said way upthread - this isn’t all or nothing for me. I’m not expecting that gay rights are really a huge part of Obama’s agenda. I will be happy if he can make noticeable inroads with our economic problems, with our two lovely wars overseas, and with civil rights in general. But I would also be happy if he realizes what a slap in the face this choice does seem to be to a large portion of the gay community (if what I have read and heard are anything to go by).
Roddy
Who fed you that steaming load? Says who? One of those car commericals: “Hey, you were a pretty wild guy back in college, but now you’re more mature and responsible, which is why you should buy cars that will kill yer planet.”
What’s that word, you know the one…oh, yeah! Sight?
Hm. Actually, as a result of this, Rick Warren’s church appears to have become more welcoming of homosexuals, as certain parts of their web page have been changed.
Melissa Etheridge seems to have had a long talk with the man as well.
Which says to me that Etheridge is incredibly naive. When someone’s been a rat for 40 years, it takes more than a tail toupee to convince me that he’s turned into a fuzzy cuddly squirrel.
You’re a fucking cockroach, and wouldn’t know leadership if it bit you in the exoskeleton. This ain’t Great Debates where only you get to hurl insults at people without consequence. So take you words to me and shove them up your ass because I piss on them, disrespect them, and hold them to be worthless.
Good thing this a mostly pro-Obama, liberal message-board. I can’t imagine the bile against him in a right-leaning one.
Do many of you really think that Obama’s “gay agenda” (whatever that is) will be defined by Warren’s inagural prayer? The man hasn’t slept one night at the White house and he’s being killed by his own guys.
Or maybe he didn’t get the memo where “tolerance” and “inclusive” mean " you just have to behave exactly as we want, anything else is bigotry".
