Ridiculous?:Kabbalah and Celebs

Great Debates
41

What words in your mouth? Post #24

The people who you talk about may sincerely believe that they are studying Kabbalah, are getting things just as wrong as my Christian. If he sincerely believes what he’s practicing and studying is Christianity, how is he different from the people you are defending?

I’m not trying to be objective here. However, I don’t think you’re familiar with the definition of objective.

I quoted something you said. You denied you said it. I proved you did. How is that an immature argument?

I’m debating just fine. I keep using a valid analogy. You keep ignoring it.

Hopscotch? Foursquare? Exactly what grade-school game am I playing?

42

Better get used to it. Whining gets you no where.

43

Gentleposters,

While this topic is obviously one in which several of you have a personal interest, there is no reason to forget that you are in Great Debates and not the BBQ Pit. Please refrain from ascribing evil motives to each other lest you trip and begin hurling forbidden epithets. You will also refrain from descriptions of how you might perceive another poster to have acted, already, and from issuing instructions from you as to how another poster should act.

[ /Moderator Mode ]

44

Thank you, tomndebb.

45

Just curious Doc, but what exactly do you see wrong with Uncle Al, the O.’.T.’.O, G.’.D.’., A.’.A.’., etc…?

If it’s too much of a hijack for this thread you don’t have to answer.

46

I am non Jew who is fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic, and knows Jewish tradition reasonably well (I have a doctorate in religion, and specialized in early rabbinic Judaism, though I ended up not going into academia).

My Jewish studies made me a post Christian – I no longer believe in Christianity. My interest in Second Temple and early Rabbinic mysticism led me to study the Kabbalah (which came into being in the mid-1100’s, probably originally in Iraq, but took off in Provence).

If I had a “religion”, I would call it the Kabbalah. While parts of the system require the observance of the commandments, it should be noted that the Zohar itself does not refer to the commandments much, relative to its size. (to be precise, I am referring to the main body of the Zohar, not to Tikkunei Zohar, a later stratum, which does rely on the idea of the observance of the commandments).

Very briefly, the Kabbalah is based on Gnostic and Neo Platonic themes. It uses terms from a text called Sefer Yetsirah, a late Second Temple mystical tome, but the Kabbalah reinterpretes those terms to fit into a system of emanations that both describe the inner life of the Godhead, and how the Infinite reaches into creation. This system, called the Sephirot, has astounding implications for spiritual psychology (for all people, not just Jews), and its spiritual insights provide great guidance in mystical meditation. I don’t practice the commandments of Judaism, but I study Zohar and other Kabbalistic texts, and I use them to great benefit in my spiritual life.

I consider myself a non-Jewish kabbalist.

47

Well as been previously estabished in this thread, we are primarily talking about berg and the celebs that utilize him

My attitudes are based on that of an entire religion that is insulted by what these celebs are doing. Just because you are unware of it doesn’t make it not so.

DocCathod pretty much answered all your questions

Why does it matter? Doc proves the point here very simply, it is insulting to jews and the faith of kabbalists.

As for “trying” or sincerity of these celebs, if they were, they would try to really follow kabbalah as opposed to what they are doing.

48

One can debate about the varied orders whose initials you list, but regarding Uncle Al… Good God, man, what exactly do you see right with him?!?

:smiley:

49

Lynnwood Slim What exactly do you mean by post-Christian? If you’ve decided that Jesus was not the son of G-d, yet still believe in the G-d of Abraham, why haven’t you converted to Islam or Judaism? Being fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic, there’s no argument you that you have much of the knowledge required to study Kabbalah. As any poster who has read this forum for the past few years knows, I feel it is extremely important to be able to read sacred texts in their original languages. You catch all the nuances, the many layers of meaning, and can interpret their exact meanings for yourself instead of relying on somebody else. I do wonder how much you miss due to not thinking of yourself as a Jew and seeing G-d and the world in Jewish terms.

FinnAgain

I have absolutely no problem with AA. Those meetings have saved countless lives over the years. Bill W was a righteous man and great teacher.

BTW

Although nobody has said so, it occured to me that people reading this thread might think I’m saying ‘None of these people are fit to study Kabbalah! They aren’t qualified and holy like I am.’ I want to make it clear that I am not qualified either. I am not fluent in Hebrew or Aramaic. I am not nearly knowledgable enough of the Talmud. I am manic depressive. I have attention deficit disorder. This means that I lack the emotional stability and purity, and the concentration required by Kabbalah.

50

My bad, jeff. Earlier in the thread that wasn’t clear and not knowing Berg (but knowing many sincere students some of whom are celebrities) I missed that. Frankly, I cannot eruditely comment on Berg and his students. Might I assume they are an equivalent to Sun Myung Moon’s “Christianity?”

Being insulted is a choice. I’ve found that it’s an uphill, thankless battle to rail against something one cannot change. But if that’s how you want to spend your time, have at it!

heh, heh, At this point I wouldn’t touch that with a 1920’s style death-ray…
(I had questions?)

I don’t get it. Every religion and field of study gets insulted by someone. It’s just a fact of life. And just as you have the right to be insulted (if you are) or feel sympathy for those you consider real kabbalists or for jews in general, they have a right to do what they do and call it what they wish, whether they are dead wrong or whether through their own methods they have discovered a functional short-cut to kabbalistic enlightenment. They will reap what they sow; and from what I understand, sloppy kabbalistic study can have devestating consequences, no? (Not insinuating the wrath of G_d or magical intervention necessarily, but a misunderstanding of principles that can lead one astray.)

Many are. Some may think they are. I think the appropriate rail s/b against those who mislead people, not against the celebrities, who may be victims.

Remember? “Don’t punish the victims?”

I think you and I should be clear now. Thanks for calmly pointing out the stuff I missed instead of going on a rant.

FWIW, and to clarify my position (which was hacked to pieces because of a misinterpretation), and to address the OP:

[ol]
[li]It is not ridiculous for celebrities to study kabbalah.[/li][li]It’s actually complementary that they think enough of an ancient jewish field of study to try to involve themselves.[/li][li]People get misled all the time; better that we spend our time guiding them back into a productive path.[/li][li]People got a right to study what they wish.[/li][li]People even got a right to reinterpret things that have been “set in stone.” Some one of them may be right.[/li][li]Hi OpalCat![/li][/ol]

I guess we just disagree.

51

Kabbalah, like Zen, is diametrically opposed to schortcuts.

[QUOTE]

[li]It is not ridiculous for celebrities to study kabbalah.[/li][/QUOTE]

I disagree that what they are studying is actually Kabbalah.

[QUOTE]

[li]It’s actually complementary that they think enough of an ancient jewish field of study to try to involve themselves.[/li][/QUOTE]

Except that Berg teaches that Kabbalah is not specifically Jewish, and Madonna and the rest don’t consider it to be Jewish.

Which is one of the reasons I keep saying ‘That’s not Kabbalah! Here are the reasons why’

52

DocCathode: I saw that quote the first time though, but was wondering if you’d elaborate on it. Why, for instance, you viewed Crowley as being dishonest, etc… If you’d prefer not to, that’s cool.

53

Nobody in this thread is saying they don’t have the right to do it. They’re just saying that they shouldn’t do it. But nobody’s suggesting they be stopped from doing it.

54

For someone who bills himself as “The Evilist Man in the World” I guess dishonesty could be thrown in there.

From what I heard about Crowley, I consider him laughable, a joke. Others study him seriously – I can’t figure out why… He seemed more of a performer than a seeker.

55

I’ll chime in here with my own two cents.

When I was in college, I studied Television and Radio production. One of my teachers was Sister Camille D’Arenzio, a member of the Sisters of Mercy, who can sometimes be heard doing commentary on New York radio stations.

The class I had specifically with her was a class in Criticism. Each person in the class had to bring some piece of television production into class and offer a criticism. The class would then discuss the piece.

One person brought in the video from one of Madonna’s hits. I don’t remember which one (I’m not really a Madonna fan anyway), but I do remember that the song was overtly sexual and had a crucifix featured promenantly. The class discussed the video much as we did for the other pieces. At the end, Sister Camille, asserting her right as the professor and her opinion as a Catholic nun, said her piece: she found it highly distrubing that Madonna was taking the image of the crucifix, which is the Christian symbol of ultimate self-sacrifice and selflessness and using it in such an overtly sexual manner - perverting the symbol to the exact opposite of it’s intended meaning.

I can’t say that my feelings about Berg and the Kaballah Centre are exactly the same as Sister Camille’s was about the Madonna video, but it’s not too far off. Kaballah, while not a symbol to Jews as the crucifix is to Christians, is still a theological study with specific meaning to Jews and specific guidelines as to how and when it is to be studied and what is to be done with the knowledge gained from that study. Traditionally, Kaballah is studied only by Jewish married men over the age of 40, who have had an extensive background in Talmud and Jewish law. It’s not a “beginner’s course,” it’s more like post-doctoral work.

That being said, I find three items objectionable:

  1. Firstly, I highly, highly, highly doubt that what Berg is teaching to these celebrities is authentic. I would not be surprised to find out that it is some watered down version of Kabalah. If men who have studied Jewish studies for years and years have trouble with Kaballah, I highly doubt that Madonna and Brittney are taking it all in knowing next-to-nothing about Judaism.

  2. As others have pointed out in this thread, Kaballah does not exist in a vacuum. It’s not a “stand-alone” product, it’s meant to be used in conjunction with the Torah and the Talmud – by those who observe the commandments. Using Kaballah by itself without the accompanying background is akin to a junior high school student operating on a patient by dint of looking at a medical textbook.

  3. Much as Sister Camille felt that Madonna was perverting the meaning of the Crucifix in her videos, I feel that Berg is perverting the meaning of Kaballah by his actions. He’s taken a discipline of study that Jews have engaged in for hundreds or thousands of years and turned it into good luck charms, selling holy water and red string. It’s much more than that, but you’d never know it from the press that it gets. And why does it get that press? Because of Berg.

Zev Steinhardt

56

Actually, that was the Times of London who called him that. Talk about good press! Moreoever, why would adopting that title mean one was dishonest? If nothing else, it seems to be in keeping with the principle of Salve et Coagula.

I see no reason to study Crowley seriously. His writings, however…

57

D’oh! Solve et Coagula.
Yeesh. And with that, I’m off to drink Guinness with friends. A good night to all, check ya lata.

58

Actually, here I think the celebs help it most. If it was just a small craze that nobody was really in, there’d be other stories on the news. But ~gasp~ Madonna is a Kabbalist now! Get some cameras on her!

And with that, I really am out for the night.

~escapes into the shadows~

59

[QUOTE=DocCathode]
Lynnwood Slim What exactly do you mean by post-Christian? If you’ve decided that Jesus was not the son of G-d, yet still believe in the G-d of Abraham, why haven’t you converted to Islam or Judaism? Being fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic, there’s no argument you that you have much of the knowledge required to study Kabbalah.

Doc: In Rabbinic Judaism, there is a well known concept of “Noahides” those who believe in one God, but who are not part of the Israelite covenant. They are part of the Noahide covenant. I have spoken with rabbis, and most do not feel that a person who stops believing in the divinity of Jesus need necessarily convert to Judaism. They consider me a God-fearing gentile. I am deeply rooted in biblical religion, and have learned much from Christianity. For example, I think Paul Tillich is perhaps the greatest modern theologian, and his works inspire me greatly.

To the Kabbalah: I would heartily agree with sentiment that what the Kabbalah center teachers in not Kabbalah. It is an amalgam of new age spirituality, liberally laced with words and images from the Kabbalah.

Kabbalah is complex and difficult. The meditative tradition, e.g. that of Abraham Abulafia, is very complex and difficult. The Zohar is an astonishingly rich and deep text, but it is very tough to break its “code”. When I meet someone who says they are studying the Kabbalah in some Kabbalah “lite” version, I really want to chuckle. Its like someone reading Zukav’s Dancing Wu Li Masters and say they are studying Quantum Physics (that reference dates me somewhat, I am sure).

I would disagree with one thing you said, about background in Talmud being required for Kabbalah studies. I have pretty good knowledge of Talmud, and it is rarely applicable to Kabbalah studies. Knowledge of Jewish tradition and law (halakha) are of course, necessary, but not much Talmud. Midrash is another thing entirely, because the main body of the Zohar purports to be an ancient Midrash on the Torah. You really have to know Midrash well to understand what the Zohar is doing. But remember, the Zohar is only one type of Kabbalah, the interpretive path. Other Kabbalistic texts (e.g., Moses Cordovero) are rather philosophic in nature, meaning built on highly ratiocinative models of discourse.

60

Lynwood Slim I’m familiar with the seven laws of Noah. But, until just now, I always assumed Noahides were something of a myth, that they were Jewish wishful thinking. I’m stunned.

BTW I’ve never liked the idea that one should fear G-d. OTTOMH, the relevant passage is ‘Do not put a stumbling block before the widow, the orphan, or the blind man but fear G-d’. In other words, do not do wrong because it is wrong. But, if you’re still tempted, remember the consequences.