For the first time in a while yesterday, I encountered a group of young Orthodox Jewish women who asked me if I was also Jewish. Since I’m not, the conversation didn’t go any further, but I assume that these women (like the young Lubavitcher men I’ve seen with the Mitvah Tank in midtown Manhattan) were looking for less observant Jews to speak with, in hopes of leading them into a more religious lifestyle.
It made me wonder - how many Orthodox sects are there, and what are the differences between them? Also, what does it mean to be “ultra-Orthodox,” a term I hear used occasionally in discussions of Jewish groups in Israel?
You know - I am Jewish, and when I was single, I never had groups of “young Orthodox Jewish women” come up and ask me anything.
Heh.
Regarding the concept of “leading them into a more religious lifestyle,” Jews call it Kiruv, or “bringing closer.”
I want to make a distinction early in what could turn out to be a lengthy thread - Jews do not proselytize. The idea that people should convert others from “their” religion to “ours” is not a Jewish concept - it came later.
That said, Jews are all for teaching those Jews who have wandered off the path how to get back onto it.
There are as many Orthodox sects as there are Orthodox Jews… just ask one.
OK - let me try to answer seriously… Orthodox Jews (vs Conservative or Reformed Jews)as a group contain several subsets:
[ul]
[li]Modern Orthodox[/li][li]Right-Wing (or Yeshivish)[/li][li]Lubavich[/li][li]Chasidish[/li][/ul]
I am sure that someone will have a problem with my divisions, so we can start there. Let’s bat that around and try to settle on terms before we get into specific definitions.
:whistling and looking at watch. Where is cmkeller when you need him?:
If it’s any comfort, sdimbert, this is the first time I’ve had women ask me - it was always men before.
For sure - in these encounters, no one has ever continued a conversation with me once I said I wasn’t Jewish. I’d always figured their message simply wasn’t intended for the likes of me.
Orthodox Jews run the full spectrum. They do, however tend to fall in several major groupings, and ** sdimbert**'s groupings are a good place to start. However, unlike, for example, Christian sects, where you are either Protestant or Catholic (but not both), Orthodox Jews can “blend” between groups. For example, I come from a Yeshivish background, but tend to act and dress more on the Modern Orthodox side. Yet, I’m not entirely comfortable with that label either. In addition, I’m sending my kids to a yeshiva that has a very right-wing (Yeshivish) background.
my grandfather (a modern orthodox rabbi in Germany) says where ever theres oxygen, there’s Jews, and twice as many different types of Judaism. I come from a modern orthodox background (yeshivish? never heard the term), went to yeshiva, and now practice Buddhism. go figure.
I believe sdimberts got it as for the general idea though.
I was told that much of the apparent diversity stems from the various practices of local religious leaders in Europe over the years (and that these have been brought to the New World). In other words, a leader in Latvia may have advocated one set of customs, mores, etc., a leader in Vilna another, and a leader in Kielce yet another.
I’m always amazed that the same 10 commandments have led to such variety. But then again, after the commandments, there is only commentary.
Many (mostly right-wing Protestant) Christians would argue that Mormonism is not Christian, but extra-Christian, in the sense that Christianity is the basis, but then the Mormons added a bunch of stuff that made it something else entirely. I think it’s analagous to how most Jews think of Christianity. We Christians added the “New Testament”, and its belief system, Mormons added The Book of Mormon and it’s belief system.
While this is generally true, I found to my amusement that a Jew on this board, upon seeing my quest for religion in another thread once and my mention fo a Jewish lineage on my mothers side, send me a couple of e-mails which were essentially “witnessing.”
Now, it could be argued that this person was not trying to convert me as much as get me to act like my heritage dictates, but the end result to someone who was raised fairly devoid of any religious - let alone Jewish - trappings is pretty much the same.
Note to the person who did this (whose name I shall not reveal): Please do not take my mentioning this here negatively, as that is not my intent. I was flattered with your e-mails, and though I found it quite amusing having a Jew witness to me, it also was a help and still is in my spiritual quest. So thank you, and I mean that.
Oh, and pldennison in another thread mentioned that he saw a billboard on his trip back to Cleveland from DC asking people to seek God and offered an 800 number that went to a Jewish organization.
Yer pal,
Satan
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
One month, one week, two days, 5 hours, 19 minutes and 5 seconds.
1568 cigarettes not smoked, saving $196.11.
Life saved: 5 days, 10 hours, 40 minutes.
I think SDimbert’s classifications are as good as any, remember that there are sects within some of those divisions (mainly, within Hasidism, for example) that often related to a geographic area of Europe or the followings around a particularly charismatic rebbe.
Among such sects, the distinctions may be clear, followers of one sect or another. Within the broad classifications, as noted, the distinctions can be quite fuzzy – this is not like the difference between Methodists and Baptists. I could add that there are Conservative and Traditional Congregations that would be indistinguishable from Orthodox to the outside eye, or where the service itself would be identical (aside from the mixed male/female seating.)
On the question of whether Jews actively seek converts, the answer already give is that, by and large, we do not. However, Satan’s example is the exception – there are some groups who target people who are already Jews (by birth) who do not practice, and try to persuade them to live a more Jewish life. This is not viewed as “conversion” per se, they’re not trying to convince non-Jews to become Jewish, they’re trying to convince Jews to become more Jewish. So, Satan, with your “Jewish lineage on your mother’s side”, they view you as a target for rekindling a Jewish soul. If you had said that you had Jewish lineage on your father’s side, they would have probably ignored you.
Sorry, I failed to address this point in my last post.
“Ultra-Orthodox” is a meaningless term. The media usually uses it to refer to Chassidim, believing them to be “more religious” than other Orthodox Jews. However, Chassidim keep the same 613 mitzvos (commandments) that I do. We both keep the same Shabbos, regard the same foods as kosher, eat the same Matzoh on Passover, don’t wear clothes of wool and linen, etc.
There are some different customs based on the places where the different Chassidic sects come from, but these are simply customs. The failure to keep any of them does not render one any “less Orthodox” than anyone else.
I think these misunderstandings (both Satan’s and the confusion re the differences between Jewish “sects” vs Christian ones) stem from a single point:
Judaism is not a religion.
OK - away from that Post Reply button… let me explain. From http://www.m-w.com:
There - lots to work with now. Understand that my assertion stems from my Observant background. It seems to me that Judaism is not a religion because it is more than any of these definitions allow for. Judaism is really a nationality. Some differences between Judaism and other “religions”:
[ul]
[li]Jews are not made, they are born. By this I mean that the definition of a Jew concerns itself not with belief or theology, but with lineage. Thus, our pal Satan is a Jew (having been born to a Jewish mother) whether he wants to be or not.[/li][li]While one can convert to Judaism, one can not convert from it.[/li][li]Judaism has laws concerning areas of life that no other religion concerns itself with. Jews study laws of worship, certainly, but they also study laws which dictate what they can eat, wear, and say, where they can go, who they can marry, when they can sleep with their spouses, even how to tie their shoes![/li][/ul]
As I’ve said before - Judaism is not a “cardiac religion” - it does not concern itself with what lies in the heart. It is (for lack of a better term) a “practical religion,” or, more approporiately, a nationality.
I know the distinction is a minor one, but, as I understand things, soulsling and Satan are still Jews, despite their practice, in the same way that Sir Anthony Hopkins is still British, even though he lives in the US. Since I don’t define Judaism as a religion, but rather as a nationality, whether or not a Jew practices is irrelevant to me - he (or she) is still a Jew.
Hanging his head in shame for not seeing this thread when I got to work this morning. :o
Now, as to the original question:
There are many different “sects” amongst Orthodox Jews. The one thing that unites them is that they believe that every word of the Torah and Talmud are binding as law, eternal and unchangeable. However, these sects have differences in minor areas. Some sects follow certain post-Biblical customs that others do not. Chasidic sects are devoted to the teachings of a specific Rabbi and each member of it feels a personal connection to his Rabbi in a way that most non-Chasidim do not (however much they might respect their preferred Rabbi). Certain sects place a special emphasis on one kind of commandment (although not to the exclusion of all else). I really couldn’t give a number.
As Zev had said, the term “ultra-orthodox” is meaningless in the religious context. It is a term created by the leftist Israeli media to describe Orthodox Jews who aren’t “reasonable” like the Orthodox Jews who agree with them (or who at least don’t disagree as vocally). Not wanting to alienate all Orthodox Jews, they label the ones they disagree with as “extremist” or “ultra.” But religiously, they are the same as “plain” Orthodox Jews.
sdimbert:
While I’d agree that not all aspects of Judaism fit within the dictionary definition of “religion” that you quoted, certainly all those definitions can fit within Judaism. It is a system of belief…sure, it emphasizes action, but those actions are based on the Torah and the belief that G-d gave it! Without those crucial components of the action, keeping Kosher would be just as Judaic as the Dr. Atkins diet!
Judaism might not be concerned only with what’s in one’s heart, but it certainly is concerned with what is in one’s heart.
Many thanks for your answers! Okay, to sum up and see if I understand correctly…
The different Orthodox groups follow the same basic religious principles; areas of practice and/or emphasis that vary from group to group do so merely as a function of (regional) customs perpetuated within the group. You can follow the customs of one or more groups, depending on which customs you wish to keep, but you would be considered Orthodox (as opposed to Conservative or Reform) as long as you keep the “same 613 mitzvos (commandments) … the same Shabbos, regard the same foods as kosher, eat the same Matzoh on Passover, don’t wear clothes of wool and linen, etc.” Is that right?
Now, sdimbert mentioned four general subsets of Orthodox Jews:
[ul]
[li]Modern Orthodox[/li][li]Right-Wing (or Yeshivish)[/li][li]Lubavich[/li][li]Chasidish[/li][/ul]
From the previous comments I would guess that each of these subsets encompasses a variety of things, but what are the basic distinctions between them?
Also, I’m a bit confused here - I thought that the Lubavicher Orthodox were Hasidic, but the list above suggests that they are distinct from Hasidim. What am I missing?
There’s kind of an idea floating around that all “ultra-orthodox” Jews are Hasidim. This is just wrong. Hasidism is a particular movement founded by the Baal Shem Tov in, uh, some point in time. Hasidim are very into mysticism. Not all dati (very religious) people are Hasidim - such as a the Lubavitchers. If you go to a dati neighborhood, like Mea Shearim or Geula in Jerusalem, or Bnei Brak in Tel Aviv (I believe there are also dati neighborhoods in New York and Montreal), you can see that there are slight differences in dress that reflect peoples’ different affiliations. Different hat or coat styles, some men wear these rather cool silk robes over their clothes, etc., etc.
Incidentally, it should be noted that all of these are European traditions. There are plenty of non-European Jews who are considered ultra-orthodox (if you’re interested, look up the Israeli political party Shas) but traditionally are separate from these groups.
I’ve often felt that if you could cross Reform’s emphasis on personal interpretation, Chasadim’s emphasis on mysticism, Karaism’s reliance on only the Torah, and Chad Lubavitch’s emphasis on teaching, you’d get somebody who was like a bible-centered born-again (Protestant) Christian (minus the Christian beliefs, of course).
Yes, Judaism is a religion (like Lutherans or Roman Catholics) to which one can convert. However, Judaism is also a people (like Irish or Italian) into which one is born.
I would be interested to hear cmkeller’s take on the differences between the “subdivisions” within Orthodoxy. My perspective (as a somewhat rightwing Conservative) is that the difference is mostly one of affiliation: sort of like asking, what’s the difference between the East Side Baptist Church and the Elm Street Baptist Church. The basic theology, ritual, and observances are the same, but each sect (indeed, each congregation) has its own little variances.
In the US, there are national organizations (broadly, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform) that set certain standards for their branch. Most individual synagogues affiliate with one of those organizations, but then pretty much sets their own practices on matters that the national organization doesn’t address, such as what time services begin, whether and when there is a sermon, how much English vs Hebrew, etc. Furthermore, individual synagogues may have developed their own traditions or may choose to belong to a national organization (Lubavitcher, for instance) distinct from the larger ones.
Well, let’s start with the first two. Most “Modern Orthodox” do send their children to yeshiva, usually through high school and often for a year or two of post-high school instruction. However, they are of the opinion that learning Torah, while an excellent foundation for life and a good career for those who feel an aptitude for it, is not something that everyone should do on a full-time basis. They are more likely, therefore, to have their children in college and a career even when those children have no independent need to make a living.
The “Yeshivish” crowd, on the other hand, while admitting that not everyone is cut out for a career in the Rabbinate, see this as the ideal. They will more likely encourage their children to stay learning in a yeshiva full-time as long as they do not have a compelling need to earn a living. These folks will likely encourage their daughters to marry someone who is learning full-time and support him for a while in Kollel, at least until kids come. When there are kids, whether the male will be expected to get a job or whether he will be expected to continue the prior arrangement and get a babysitter will usually depend on whether the male actually does aspire to a rabbinic career.
This difference accounts for most of the other, minor differences between the groups. Modern Orthodox are more likely to dress more fashionably…because they’re more often amongst non-Jews, and their fashion ideas are influenced by them. In politics, the “Yeshivish” crowd does tend more right-wing than the Modern crowd, mainly because they spend more time in learning, so their attitudes tend to be more idealistic.
Chasidim are basically yeshivish types, except you have to add a Rebbe (the yiddish pronunciation of Rabbi) to that. And they dress like 18th-century Eastern Europeans and speak more yiddish. They are devoted followers of their specific Rebbe, which accounts for the distinct wardrobe and the additional customs. The previous two types I mentioned tend to be more independent of their Rabbis.
Lubavichers are indeed Chasidim, followers of the Lubavicher Rebbe. However, they have recently been on a big Messiah kick, usually giving the implication that their (now late) Rebbe is the Messiah, and occasionally even saying this outright. The belief that one’s Rebbe is the Messiah is not an essential part of Chasidic tradition, and other sects, uncomfortable with the notion that they will be associated with this idea, occasionally try to make a distinction between them and Lubavichers. While all Orthodox Jews believe the Messiah will come and restore ISrael to its glory days, the fervent Messianic cheering makes many non-Lubavichers uncomfortable.
Kyla:
Mid-18th century.
Well, there are Modern and Yeshivish Sephardim, although it’s true that their traditins are quite different from Ashkenazic (European) ones. I don’t think there are any Sephardic Chasidic sects.
