Riding my tail with highbeams on is a recipe to make me go slower, not faster...

The BBQ Pit
101

As I said previously, on many many occasions, I have pulled over to allow tailgaters to pass without incident. This is unsurprising, since you are giving them exactly what they want. IMHO, there is a far greater danger of provoking an aggressive response if you escalate the situation by deliberately impeding the tailgater.

**

As I’ve said again and again in this thread, if the OP did in fact give the tailgater a prompt and reasonable opportunity to pass, I would have a different opinion. I don’t believe that such an opportunity was given, but I concede the possibility. Only the OP knows for sure.

102

Not in my experience. If the OP could have been easily and safely passed, most drivers I’ve seen would have crossed the double yellow to do so rather than drive for 20 mins at 15mph below the speed limit.

**

I looked at all the posts, and I agree that there is evidence to support your side. But I stand behind what I’ve said and repeat that only the OP knows for sure.

**

I suppose I’ll take a shot at it - but let me ask you first – is it your position that it is always possible under all circumstances to pass a car going 15 mph?

**

I read the OP’s comments in the light of many years of driving experience and seeing human nature at work on the road. Anyway, there’s not much point in debating this further. I’ve already basically conceded that my opinion is just that – an opinion. I’ve also conceded that my opinion would be different if the OP in fact gave the tailgater a reasonable opportunity to pass. And only the OP knows the true facts.

103

I have a fabulous idea. Windwalker, in the interest of eradicating self-indulgent, blathering, brick-wall ingnorance, should go out and take pictures of the road in question- from the area the incident first began, to the spot where he was finally passed- then post them. Be sure to include things by which we can infer spatial relations- otherwise we can’t accurately judge whether or not you could have moved over enough to let this gentleman pass. Make sure you take pictures of your vehicle as well, so we can decide whether or not it was possible for you to truly be blinded by the headlights of another car.

I’ll even post pics of my road, so that luc can tell me how I may avoid this situation in the future and I can benefit from his many years of driving experience.

What do you think, WW?

104

Feel free to post pics, but I’ll note that you haven’t answered the questions I asked you:

(1) I gather that you concede that it is generally possible to allow a car behind you to pass. Yes or no?

(2) Is there, or is there not, a 6 mile stretch of road in Eastern Alabama where it’s impossible to allow a car following you to pass?

(3) If so, what is the specific location of this stretch of road?

105

“I hope you had a chance to convey similar information to the dork who works with you!!! “Umm hey, bitch boy, in what world would you riding MY ass make the guy who’s really causing the hold-up drive faster”??”

Since I’ve actually seen this work on I-64 headed from Norfolk up to Williamsburg, VA, let me say, it can and does work in this world. I’ve been both the “pusher” (rearmost vehicle) and the “oreo” (caught in the middle). It works because of psychology (I think). The pusher is letting the orea know he wants to go faster. The oreo tries to speed up a bit to get out of the way of the pusher and so ends up pushing the lead slow guy. Who then DOES get out of the way if it works correctly (which happens probably about 70% of the time). So, the guy in front pulls to the right and either the pusher and oreo continue or the guy in front and the middle pull to the right in which case the pusher passes them both.

Thing is, it has to be the right set of circumstances for it to work. Traffic ahead of the front slow driver has to be clear otherwise there’s no point to it. Further, the right lane needs to have clearings so that the front guy at least can get to the right. If I am the oreo with no where to go and someone is riding my tail I throw up my hands palm open in a shrug to communicate “what the fuck do you want me to do, we’re boxed in for chrissakes”, and I’ve never once had someone NOT back off when realizing that.

But then again, I’m a technical driver. I enjoy driving. I drive fast and well. I’ve spent my time and money at the appropriate schools in both the US and overseas learning how to do so, when to do so, and when not to do so. I avoid kids with 900lb wings and kazoo mufflers with a passion.

By the way, to all the folks who think bright light flashers are obnoxious, that is precisely how they teach you to indicate overtaking traffic in Germany on the autobahn and is generally employed throughout europe. It’s worth remembering that in Germany, it’s considered both ** courtesy and the law ** to signal intent to drivers you are overtaking. If people in the states would actually view it this way, (“hey up there, I’m coming up behind you kinda fast so keep right please!”) instead of getting all huffy about it, life would generally be easier for both drivers. But then again, Germans understand the concept of “slower traffic keep to the right” a concept which seems lost on about 50% of the American drivers out there (even though it too is the law).

As always your real options are scenario specific. At this point no one has addressed why the passing didn’t occur over the double yellow. I’d suspect it was because of a combination of hills or corners plus oncoming traffic. It just seems unlikely to me that someone would willingly follow someone else doing 15mph in a 35mph zone if they had any real option to pass. I’m betting they didn’t (and if you re-read the OP you’ll notice the OP doesn’t address the ability of traffic to pass). This changes the complexion of the issue. Also, I don’t wonder if after a while the guy in the back wasn’t of a “fuck you then, I hope you enjoy the burned out retinas I’m giving you while we parade on down the road” mindset.

/me shrugs

Both sides could have handled this better. The tailgator more so, but both sides could’ve done things to end the scenario faster and safer. Apparently pride wouldn’t let either do so.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

106

**Whatever. We’re going around and around in the same circle. IMO, it simply defies believablility that one could not overtake a car going 15 MPH (not 15 MPH below the speed limit, mind you–15 MPH) at some point during a twenty-minute journey. And you have already conceded that slowing to a crawl is an acceptable way of providing a tailgater with an opportunity to pass. In fact, don’t let me misstate. You said this:

**Have you ever actually driven behind someone doing 15 MPH, say in a school zone? It is the very definition of “crawling.” Do you disagree? At what point do you admit you’re being a bit inconsistent?

**You’re not standing behind it so much as repeating it ad infinitum. I would ask again exactly what road conditions would prevent a tailgater from passing someone going 15 MPH for a 20-minute stretch, but at this point I have absolutely no expectation that an answer is forthcoming.

You seem to have a lot invested in having as your primary assumption that the tailgater’s behavior was at least somewhat offset by the OP’s refusal to let the SOB pass. Who am I to take that away from you?

**No. For example, if your car is only capable of 14 MPH ;). It is my contention that is is almost always possible to pass a car going 15 MPH, particularly if one has 20 minutes to do so. The OP corroborates that this was the case in this instance. You are free, of course, to infer whatever you like, which you obviously have despite the fact that logic and firsthand testimony would suggest otherwise.

107

As bouncer said, there might have been a lot of curves and oncoming traffic. You haven’t really answered my point about other cars passing except to wave your hands and speculate that nobody would break the law to avoid being stuck behind the OP for 20 mins.

**

I imagine crawling as 1-5 miles per hour.

**

A lot of curves and oncoming traffic. Anyway, I note that you refuse to state without qualification that it’s always possible to pass a car going 15 mph.

There is logic and evidence going both ways here. The fact that the OP could have slowed further but didn’t. The fact that he took pleasure in the tailgater’s predicament. The fact that nobody passed both cars in one shot. This all suggests to me that the OP was driving in a manner intended to deliberately impede the tailgater.

I basically agree.

108

**Yep, lots of hand waving on my part. You’re right, it’s hard to counter such a strong argument.

**I’m not sure how you can note that, since I answered it flatly. That would be here:

**You might want to note the use of the word, “no,” and the qualifier “almost always.” In doing so, you will be recognizing that I have answered your question. You may continue to believe what you wish, of course.

**Yes, yes, I understand. The OP is an unimpeachable source when he states that he took pleasure in slowing down, but he is clearly suspect when he points out how curious it was that the tailgater didn’t pass him. Your logic is unassailable.

Yes, then both of you are ignoring the OP’s subsequent post. Most convenient.

109

lucwarm, in rereading, I see that you meant that I did not rule out the possibility that it could be impossible to pass someone going 15 MPH. That is, in fact, a technically accurate but incomplete reading of my response.

110

I note that you’ve given up on countering the argument.

Sez I:

(emphasis mine)

Sez You:

(emphasis mine)

You clearly made a qualified statement and you admit as much. Thus what I said is absolutely correct. I see on preview that you kinda admit this now.

**

Absolutely. For obvious reasons, I give more credibility to the former statement. And note that he did not make the second statement until later.

But look, feel free to make your own credibility assessment.

**

I’m making my own assessment about what I believe happened. And yeah, I’m not taking the OP’s statements as gospel. Feel free to disagree.

111

About 12 years ago, I was in the same situation as the OP, being tailgated on a winding country road by a jerk with his highbeams on. I couldn’t see on either side. I had a passenger, too, who also couldn’t see. “Pull off the road to let this guy pass,” he said. So I did.

Right into a low stone wall that neither of us could see. $1250 in damage to a car that only cost $4K to begin with. The tailgater, seeing the wreck, zoomed past us. Since we never got the guy’s licence plate (no front plates in PA…but that’s another rant), I had that repair sitting on my insurance for years.

Now, you can all see that I followed our Resident Genius lucwarm’s advice in pulling over to let the tailgater pass. Fat lot of good it did. lucwarm, you are a fucking idiot.

112

Let me give you another free piece of advice that takes precedence over pulling over for tailgaters: Look where you drive.

113

=Well, I can see where it wouldwork on a highway, where the slow driver has a lane to move into. But that’s not the case in the OP’s post, nor in mine. I was on a road that has only two lanes so my riding the butt of the car in front of me would have been rude and ineffective.

114

Then by your own logic, people blinded by the hi-beams of tailgaters shouldn’t pull over. Christ, are you in some stubborness competition with a mule or something?

115

Bit difficult to do that when you’ve effectively been blinded by some moron’s hi-beams.

116

**You have an argument? Oh, right, it’s the “if he could have passed, he probably would have, even though the OP indicated there was nothing stopping the tailgater from doing so previously” argument. I forgot.

**I didn’t kind of admit it. Quit implying waffling. At first I thought you meant I didn’t answer you at all, and when I realized my error, I pointed it out.

Frankly, your statement is so broad and unqualified, it defies denial and makes no meaningful point. Is it possible that there is some circumstance, somewhere, where there’s no real opportunity to pass someone going 15 MPH for 20 minutes, even at 11:00 at night? Um, yeah, sure. That’s not the way to bet, but it’s possible. I see that recognizing this on preview was not quite enough for you to go back and edit out your brilliant rebuttal.

**That’s a riot! Do tell, what are those obvious reasons? The one that springs to mind is that it would mean you have to admit you’re making a weak and inconsistent argument.

Except when they support the conclusion you seem to have such affection for. This has become too funny! Keep 'em coming, bub.

117

See the post on page 1. lucwarm is a lawyer. Mules have nothing on lawyers.

118

I dunno. An effective lawyer should always recognize when he has a weak case and attempt to cut his losses. Better to plead down to the lesser charge than to brazen out with a laughable defense strategy and get nailed on the more serious charge. But then perhaps lucwarm isn’t an effective lawyer. I’m not really in a position to judge.

119

CanvasShoes,

Fair point. The original statement came across (probably my poor reading skills) as a bit too general. Just had to share first hand experience for context. :slight_smile:

I still am curious about the fact that no one passed on the double yellow. I mean at one point you’re talking about a veritable parade of six cars poking along in a 35mph zone at 15mph. That really makes me think there weren’t any viable places to pass and that the terrain was hilly, curvy or both. A speed limit of 35mph not in a suburban or urban area (to me) means relative back country areas. That there were no turnoffs or shoulders in six miles of this is surprising, though certainly not impossible.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

120

Hmm… reread the OP peice… I wonder if Mr. High Beams had burnt out Low Beams.

(shrug)

S’possible, I’ve seen it before a couple of times, and the guy never flashed his high beams from the original OP. Just kept them on steady.

Ahh well… life is too short for this silliness to occupy any more of my time. :slight_smile:

Regards,
-Bouncer-