Right wingnuts scare me...

[Syntropy]

@acsenray

It seemed that you were explaining the attitude of military people who lash out at those criticising bad acts (torture, etc.).

I was, but I also said I didn’t agree with those people, and that the accusation of “traitor” was bullshit.

So it seemed to me that the thinking process you are describing goes like this:

A stain on one of us is a stain on all of us; therefore, if you accuse one of us of a bad act, you slander the entire military and you are a traitor.

That is what some people think, yes. In actuality, the mindset should be (and was for myself and the people I served with) “A stain on one of us is a stain on all of us; therefore we should conduct ourselves to the best of our ability to be that which we have sworn to be and uphold that which we have sworn to uphold.”

[Acsenray]

@Maureen

That is what some people think, yes. In actuality, the mindset should be (and was for myself and the people I served with) “A stain on one of us is a stain on all of us; therefore we should conduct ourselves to the best of our ability to be that which we have sworn to be and uphold that which we have sworn to uphold.”

Is there any discussion within the military explicitly contrasting these two mindsets?

[Syntropy]

While in boot camp, everyone is required to go through several classes about military procedure and what is right and wrong. Officers, even more so. Frankly, there is absolutely no excuse for looking the other way.

The disparity you’re pointing out between my attitude and those of others… hm. I’ve retyped this three times now. I was going to say I’ve noticed it’s mostly between people who are or who have actually been in the military vs. people who haven’t and confuse “support the troops” with “endorse everything done by the military no matter how slimy,” in the optimistic hope that no one in the military would really have that kind of mind set, but that is obviously not the case.

[SteveG1]

@acsenray

Is there any discussion within the military explicitly contrasting these two mindsets?

Look up Captain Ian Fishback.

[Syntropy]

Thanks, Steve.

The letter is here from Cpt. Fishback to Sen. McCain. A very good read, if depressing as hell.

Despite my efforts, I have been unable to get clear, consistent answers from my leadership about what constitutes lawful and humane treatment of detainees. I am certain that this confusion contributed to a wide range of abuses including death threats, beatings, broken bones, murder, exposure to elements, extreme forced physical exertion, hostage-taking, stripping, sleep deprivation and degrading treatment. I and troops under my command witnessed some of these abuses in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

This is a tragedy. I can remember, as a cadet at West Point, resolving to ensure that my men would never commit a dishonorable act; that I would protect them from that type of burden. It absolutely breaks my heart that I have failed some of them in this regard.

That is in the past and there is nothing we can do about it now. But, we can learn from our mistakes and ensure that this does not happen again. Take a major step in that direction; eliminate the confusion. My approach for clarification provides clear evidence that confusion over standards was a major contributor to the prisoner abuse. We owe our soldiers better than this. Give them a clear standard that is in accordance with the bedrock principles of our nation.

I don’t know what’s more disturbing; the fact that this officer was unable to stop his men from committing acts of torture, or that he got no support when he looked up the chain of command for help.

[FinnAgain]

Naw, the real question is why is Cpt. Fishback an America hating traitor?

[SteveG1]

@FinnAgain

Naw, the real question is why is Cpt. Fishback an America hating traitor?

If anything, he’s exactly the kind of officers we need. One with a sense of right and wrong, a willingness to ask (repeatedly) for direction and clarification, and the guts to really believe there can be such a thing as honor or “the right thing”.

[lonesome_loser]

@Maureen

While in boot camp, everyone is required to go through several classes about military procedure and what is right and wrong. Officers, even more so. Frankly, there is absolutely no excuse for looking the other way.

The disparity you’re pointing out between my attitude and those of others… hm. I’ve retyped this three times now. I was going to say I’ve noticed it’s mostly between people who are or who have actually been in the military vs. people who haven’t and confuse “support the troops” with “endorse everything done by the military no matter how slimy,” in the optimistic hope that no one in the military would really have that kind of mind set, but that is obviously not the case.

Not when I was in. All they taught how to was kill. About 8 different ways.