Right wingnuts scare me...

I would further note that one of the most harmful things for America is for ignorant loud mouthed liars, like you, to harass and hound those who actually read and call them ‘traitors’ for voicing facts. You do more harm to our country than our enemies can because your slanderous ignorance-based anger is a cancer within the Republic rather than an attack from without. Treason is giving aid and comfort to our enemies, not reading, you ignorant fuck.

You should be ashamed of yourself, fucking McCarthyite asshole.

You can blow a gasket all day long, Flynn. It changes nothing. Your posts make it clear. You are a traitor and a liar. It doesn’t surprise me that you get angry with Scylla and myself for pointing this out. But, it’s not our fault what you are.

Knock off the traitor bullshit. It doesn’t mean shit, so go wave your little flag, listen to Gawd Bless Amurrica again, and shut your trap. I’ll tell you who the fucking traitors are, since you brought it up. It’s the sons of bitches who wear their flag and their heart on their sleeves, and support the sumbags who lied us into war, used up and shit on the military, and now don’t have the fucking guts to give us any REAL reasons. It’s the chickenhawks who got us all into the shit, and don’t have the balls to explain why, or even admit they fucked up. It’s the shitheads who still put their fucking party ahead of country. It’s the assholes who toss “traitor” around, out their own people for convenience, piss on the bill of rights, and all those who support or defend them. YOU are the fucking traitor. Now fuck off.

You can lie through your teeth all day long you piece of shit, but my posts and my cites don’t vanish because you’re too fucking lazy to read them.

I am neither, but you are scum that’s not worthy to be wiped off a patriot’s shoe. Why don’t you respond to the many, many cites I posted, eh? Instead of lying through your teeth and claiming I didn’t post them. Again, are you stupid enough to think that just because you didn’t read them, my cites vanish?

I know this is the Pit and all, but honestly, and without hyperbole, you are probably one of the most ignorant, mindlessly inflamatory, un-American assholes I have ever read on this board.

Again, you pathalogical fuck: Your failure to read a thread does not constitute a failure on my part to provide cites.

As has been pointed out in the other thread, your cites don’t prove your claims.

You jump to assume the absolute worst about the US military, and continue to dig in your heels after it’s been pointed out that your claims are false. Then you lash out at those of us who point this out with the fury of someone who knows he’s wrong but can’t admit it. Man, I’m very glad that the likes of you two aren’t on my side. The both of you are an embarrassment.

SCORE!!!

Steve, with all due respect, the people you described are certainly assholes who are harming our country by, among other things, attempting to criminalize dissent and criminalize reading-instead-of-taking-the-party-line, but they’re not traitors. Self destructive McCarthyite assholes, yes, but not traitors.

We need to keep our rhetoric above their scumfuck mentality.

Oh, and, for those playing along at home rather than simply calling one of our resident McCarthyite shills out, I’ll give y’all some cites. They all come from the original thread that spawned the absured ‘traitor’ charge as well as a thread that was created to Pit intellectually dishonest fucks.

In no particular order other than as I found them looking through the threads:

One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Five.
Six.
Seven.
Eight.

Like I said, just because someone is too much of a lazy intellectually dishonest fuck to do more than “skim” a thread doesn’t mean that my posts vanish. A failure to perform due dilligence on his part is not a lack of cites on mine.

Lying ignorant piece of shit. You just said you didn’t even read the thread, only skimmed it. You are stupid enough to think that posts vanish here. Moron.

And yes, they most certainly do prove my claims.

Good gods you’re dense! Not “the US military” that’s an abhorent strawman and you are an honorless liar. Those who were guilty in the military, yes. Those who’e authorized the secret detentions and “extraordinary rendition”, yes. Those who’ve argued for torture and that the Geneva Convention is ‘quaint’, yes.

And, again, the claims I made were true, which you wouldn’t know as you didn’t actually read them only “skimmed” them.

Gods, you are a disgusting piece of infectious waste.

“I was just here minding my own bussiness when, like, Finn just went berserk and all I did was say that his conclusions were wrong. I didn’t call him a lying traitor or anything. Oh, I am such a victim. Quick, someone get me a cross.”

Moron. There are no “sides”. We’re all Americans. Fucking partisan shill. And you are the embarassment, you fucking Coulter wannabe, attempting to destroy honest debate and discussion, attempting to slander those who actually read, attempting to win by force of ad hominem rather than logical refutation. And in the process, damaging our nation, Her ideals, and Her standing in the global community.

Again, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Fuck you Debaser. I guess General Peter Pace of the USMC and Joint Chiefs of Staff is now a traitor too, just like Murtha and everyone else. Pace has said there IS abuse. He went further and said it is all soldier’s duty to STOP it. Not look the other way, not report it, but stop it right then and there. Is he painting the military with some brush and committing treason too? How about Murth who said the army is virtually used up and broken? Fuck you again.

Fuck you Debaser. I guess General Peter Pace of the USMC and Joint Chiefs of Staff is now a traitor too, just like Murtha and everyone else. Pace has said there IS abuse. He went further and said it is all soldier’s duty to STOP it. Not look the other way, not report it, but stop it right then and there. Is he painting the military with some brush and committing treason too? How about Murtha who said the army is virtually used up and broken? Fuck you again.

I’ve been reading the other thread all this while. My initial reaction was based on simply reading the posts of you and Scylla. Now that I’m reading all the way through I see that my first impression was correct. Your cites do not prove what you claimed. You find a cite that someone died in a prison and jump without proof that he was tortured to death by US forces. Rinse. Repeat. That you did this eight times is hardly worth being proud of.

No. They do not. You should know that they do not since Scylla pointed this out to you in the thread. Again and again.

You made no such distinctions. You didn’t limit your treasonous slander to only certain people. You painted with the broadest of brushes.

When some American’s jump to make the worst kind of accusations without any proof of thier claims, they aren’t on my side.

Of course there is. That isn’t what’s being discussed. Do try and keep up, will you. Finn’s rhetoric went a lot farther than a simple claim that there’s been abuse. As I’ve already pointed out in this thread.

You can tire yourself out moving around those goalposts all day long. The simple fact is that Finn’s claims that dozens of prisoners have been tortured to death by US troops isn’t supported by any facts. It’s not true. He’s a liar and a traitor for saying it.

Jesus, you’re a moron. And now I think you’re lying about actually reading those cites. Proof of people being tortured to death, dying during interrogation because we put plastic bags over their heads, a pattern of abuse and coverups, forcing people to exercise till they dropped and/or had heart attacks, deaths that the military was sure enough were criminal homicides to charge soldiers with them, etc…

You’re an ignorant fuck.

Fool. He was wrong then, you’re wrong now.
Repeating something ‘again and again’ only serves as proof for quarterwits. Like you.

You’re a lying piece of shit. Show me anywhere where I said that the entire US military was to blame. You can’t, because you have no honor and you’re scum.

Again, your failure to be honest does not constitute a ‘broad brush’ on my part, you damn liar.

And by the way you fucking inflamatory moron, learn what the word ‘treason’ means before you throw it around. And, if you honestly think I’ve commited it, then you’re an unAmerican asshole coward for not reporting me to the FBI right fucking now.

Again, you are a liar. I provided many, many cites with proof. You deliberately lie and say that they’re just about “[people who] died in a prison.”

You are a liar.
You have no honor.
You are harming America by attempting to criminalize dissent, honest debate, and staying informed.

Why (ahem) do you hate America?

Yes, it’s that deaths resulted from that ‘abuse’ (read: torture). The Military, by the way, agrees with me. Fool.

And you can spend the day being an honorless lying partisan shill, but no goalposts have been moved.

Liar. The military itself says that at the very least 18 prisoners died due to ‘abuse’, and that most likely eight more did. Other evidence I provided shows that two dozen deaths is a low estimate.

Not supported by ‘any’ facts? ‘Slander’? ‘Treason’?
Then what the fuck does it mean when the Military agrees, you damn liar?

Then call the FBI right now you stupid cunt! If you’re aware of a traitor in our midst, your patriotic duty is to report me immediately you fucking keyboard warrior. Hop to it asshole, hop to it!

Oh, and by the way, you couldn’t possibly have had time to read all the cites I provided. That makes you a liar on yet another count.

My pleasure. :slight_smile:
Yes, the response was over the top, and I gotta say I’m a bit puzzled. This is only the second (I think) thread that scylla and I have both participated, and the reputation for brilliance is elluding me. I don’t get it.

You all keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Please define “traitor.”

[quote]
It is not only our right to question our leaders, but our duty as Americans.

See, that’s part of what blows my mind. I can only see three possibilities, but perhaps there are more.

  1. These people are just a bit above the lowest form of internet poster. They don’t know what the word means and are mindlessly inflamatory and toss around slanderous bullshit like this for a number of moronic reasons.
  2. They’re cowardly un-American janus faced assholes who think that they have hard evidence of treason and yet don’t care enough about their country to report such a serious crime to the proper authorities.
  3. They know that they’re wrong, and yet use inflamatory language in order to bait people and piss them off.

Oh, and, just because this tickles me and proves what a lying fuck the partisan shill in this thread is, what do my cites say that he lies and says they are really just claims of people who happened to die in our prisons with no action on our part? Here are just a few quotes that I pulled. That our partisan shill missed them means that he’s lying through his teeth about even reading them. I doubt he even clicked on the links, as these are just some good quotes used as exemplars, and hardly all of the evidence. Let alone, of course, that there was virtually no possible way to have read all the pages upon pages of source material between the time he “skimmed” the threads and the time he claims to have read the cites.

I mean, damn, how stupid do you have to be to attempt to gainsay what my cites say? I don’t even have to look them up again, just quote them.

In that case, then they should humbly accept the stain on their reputation caused by the bad acts of one of their members, admit the fault, and resolve to correct their error. Otherwise, it makes no sense; it has no moral consistency.

It means that if one of you does good, then you all have done good. But if one of you has done bad, then damn the person who exposed the bad act. It’s entirely hypocritical and self-serving.

ACLU
Army’s Own Documents Acknowledge Evidence That Soldiers Used Torture
March 25, 2005

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: media@aclu.org

Government is Manipulating Release of Torture Documents in an Attempt to Minimize Scandal, ACLU Charges
NEW YORK - The American Civil Liberties Union today charged that the government is attempting to bury the torture scandal involving the U.S. military by failing to comply with a court order requiring release of documents to the ACLU. The documents the government does release are being issued in advance to the media in ways calculated to minimize coverage and public access, the ACLU said.
The reason for the delay in delivering the more than 1,200 pages of documents was evident, the ACLU said, in the contents, which include reports of brutal beatings, “exercise until exhaustion” and sworn statements that soldiers were told to “beat the fuck out of” detainees. One file cites evidence that Military Intelligence personnel in Iraq “tortured” detainees held in their custody.
“These documents provide further evidence that the torture of detainees was much more widespread than the government has acknowledged,” said ACLU attorney Jameel Jaffer. “At a minimum, the documents indicate a colossal failure of leadership.”
The documents were supposed to have been turned over to the ACLU on March 21, but were not released to the ACLU until late on a Friday of what for many is a holiday weekend. Select reporters received a CD-ROM with the documents before they were given to the ACLU. The ACLU’s practice has been to analyze the documents it receives and post them on its website, thus ensuring easy access to the media and the public.

The documents released today include evidence of:

Abuse of a high school student detainee: Commander’s report of inquiry into broken jaw of a high-school boy (such that the boy required his mouth to be wired shut and could eat only through a straw). The victim was told “to say that I’ve fallen down and no one beat me.” The report concluded that the broken jaw was caused either as a result of a blow by a U.S. soldier or a collapse due to “complete muscle failure” from being excessively exercised. It found that “abuse of detainees in some form or other was an acceptable practice and was demonstrated to the inexperienced infantry guards almost as guidance” by 311th Battalion Military Intelligence personnel. Personnel “were striking the detainees,” and evidence suggested that the 311th Military Intelligence personnel and/or translators “engaged in physical torture of the detainees.” It was recommended that no punitive action be taken against the Commander of the Battalion. (See pp. 1173-1280)
Death of detainee with no history of medical problems: Abu Malik Kenami died while in detention in Mosul, Iraq. The investigation speculates that Kenami may have suffered a heart attack. On the day he died, Kenami had been “punished with ups and downs several times…and ha[d] his hands flex cuffed behind his back.” He was also hooded, with “a sandbag placed over [his] head.” “Ups and downs” are “a correctional technique of having a detainee stand up and then sit-down rapidly, always keeping them in constant motion.” The file states that “[t]he cause of Abu Malik Kenami’s death will never be known because an autopsy was never performed on him.” Kenami’s corpse was stored in a “reefer van” for five days before it was turned over to a local mortician. (See pp. 1281 - 1333)
Soldiers being told to “beat the fuck out of detainees”: Documents dated August 16, 2003, relating to an investigation into “alleged ROE and Geneva Convention violations” in Iraq include sworn statements relating to “Bulldog 6” telling soldiers to “take the detainee[s] out back and beat the fuck out of them.” (See pp. 1584-1613)
Perceptions of chain of command endorsement of “pay-back”: An informal investigation into an incident of abuse by soldiers while they were dropping detainees off for further questioning by the “3BCT MIT team” in Iraq. The MIT team saw the soldiers kicking blindfolded and “zipcuffed” detainees several times in the sides while yelling profanities at them. The investigation concludes that at least three TF 2-70 did abuse the detainees and adds that “some of the TF 2-70 may perceive that the chain-of-command is endorsing ‘pay-back’ by allowing the units most affected by suspected detainee actions to play the greatest role in bringing those suspects to justice.” (See pp. 1619-1755)
The page numbers noted above relate to PDF documents posted online at http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/032505/index.html.

October 25, 2005 latimes.com : World News
THE WORLD
Autopsies Support Abuse Allegations
U.S. military documents show 21 war detainees were homicide victims, an ACLU report says.
By John Hendren, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Autopsy reports on 44 prisoners who died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan indicate that 21 were victims of homicide, including eight who appear to have been fatally abused by their captors, the American Civil Liberties Union reported Monday.
The abuse involved cases in which detainees were smothered, beaten or exposed to the elements, sometimes during interrogation. Many of these cases had been brought to light previously but now have been confirmed through U.S. military autopsies. Some of the deaths followed abusive interrogations by elite Navy SEALs, military intelligence officers and the CIA, the ACLU said.

“These documents present irrefutable evidence that U.S. operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogations,” said Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU. “The public has a right to know who authorized the use of torture techniques and why these deaths have been covered up.”
The U.S. military has come under sustained criticism for its handling of detainees since photos of abuse at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad surfaced in April 2004. At least 141 prisoners have died in U.S. custody, according to Human Rights First, an advocacy group formerly known as the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights. That figure includes detainees who died of natural causes.
In one homicide case, a 47-year-old detainee died in U.S. custody from “blunt force injuries and asphyxia” on Jan. 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, after being shackled to the top of a door frame with a gag in his mouth, according to Army documents. Another document said the case involved “choking.”

US: Abu Ghraib-like torture of Afghans revealed, NYT chronicles death of two prisoners
Abuse of Afghans at Bagram base mirrors Abu-Gharib prisoner abuse, says report
Dawn
Friday, May 20, 2005
New york — The New York Times on Friday chronicled the death of two Afghan men at the hands of US Army interrogators at Afghanistan’s Bagram base, recalling the inhumane torture and treatment of prisoners at Abu-Graib prison in Iraq and Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The story of Mr Dilawar’s brutal death at the Bagram Collection Point — and that of another detainee, Habibullah, who died there six days earlier in December 2002 — emerge from a nearly 2,000-page confidential file of the Army’s criminal investigation into the case, a copy of which was obtained by the newspaper.
The Times carried the report as its first lead with four full pages devoted to the details of the incidents. Like a narrative counterpart to the digital images from Abu Ghraib, the Bagram file depicts young, poorly trained soldiers in repeated incidents of abuse.
The harsh treatment, which has resulted in criminal charges against seven soldiers, went well beyond the two deaths, the newspaper said. In some instances, the Times says: “The testimony shows, it was directed or carried out by interrogators to extract information. In others, it was punishment meted out by military police guards. Sometimes, the torment seems to have been driven by little more than boredom or cruelty, or both.”
In sworn statements to Army investigators, soldiers describe one female interrogator with a taste for humiliation stepping on the neck of one prostrate detainee and kicking another in the genitals. They tell of a shackled prisoner being forced to roll back and forth on the floor of a cell, kissing the boots of his two interrogators as he went. Yet another prisoner is made to pick plastic bottle caps out of a drum mixed with excrement and water as part of a strategy to soften him up for questioning.
The Times obtained a copy of the file from a person involved in the investigation who was critical of the methods used at Bagram and the military’s response to the deaths. Although incidents of prisoner abuse at Bagram in 2002, including some details of the two men’s deaths, have been previously reported, American officials have characterized them as isolated problems that were thoroughly investigated. And many of the officers and soldiers interviewed in the Dilawar investigation said the large majority of detainees at Bagram were compliant and reasonably well
Yet the Bagram file includes ample testimony that harsh treatment by some interrogators was routine and that guards could strike shackled detainees with virtual impunity.
60 Minutes:
G.I. Attacked During Training
“When I said the word ‘red,’ he forced my head down against the steel floor and was sort of just grinding it into the floor.”
Spc. Sean Baker

(CBS) Pictures from Abu Ghraib prison tell a story that has shocked the world.
There are no pictures of what happened in the prison camp at Guantanamo last year. But Correspondent Bob Simon has a shocking story – and it’s not about what Americans did to foreign detainees. It’s about what Americans did to a fellow American soldier, Sean Baker.
Sean Baker has seizures an average of four times a week. 60 Minutes Wednesday went to see him a few weeks ago in a New York hospital.

Baker, a National Guardsman, was working last year as a military policeman in the Guantanamo Bay prison when other MPs injured him during a training drill. It was a drill during which Baker was only obeying orders.
“I was assaulted by these individuals,” says Baker. “Pure and simple.”
It’s all the more bizarre because Baker was considered a model soldier and he had served as an MP in Saudi Arabia during the First Gulf War.
Then, minutes after the attack on the Pentagon on Sept. 11, Baker made a phone call from the auto repair shop in Lexington, Ky., where he was working. “I had to get back in the military right then,” recalls Baker. “I had to go back then. I had to do something.”

“‘We’re going to put you in a cell and extract you, have their IRF team come in and extract you. And what I’d like you to do is go ahead and strip your uniform off and put on this orange suit,’” says Baker, who was ordered to wear an orange jumpsuit, just like the ones worn by the detainees at Guantanamo.
“I’d never questioned an order before. But, at first I said, my only remark was, ‘Sir?’ Just in the form of a question. And he said, ‘You’ll be fine,’” recalls Baker. “I said, ‘Well, you know what’s gonna happen when they come in there on me?’ And he said, ‘Trust me, Spc. Baker. You will be fine.’”
Drills to practice extracting uncooperative prisoners took place every day, with a U.S. soldier playing the role of a detainee, but not in an orange jumpsuit, and not at full force.

“My face was down. And of course, they’re pushing it down against the steel floor, you know, my right temple, pushing it down against the floor,” recalls Baker. “And someone’s holding me by the throat, using a pressure point on me and holding my throat. And I used the word, ‘red.’ At that point I, you know, I became afraid.”
Apparently, no one heard the code word ‘red’ because Baker says he continued to be manhandled, especially by an MP named Scott Sinclair who was holding onto his head.
“And when I said the word ‘Red,’ he forced my head down against the steel floor and was sort of just grinding it into the floor. The individual then, when I picked up my head and said, ‘Red,’ slammed my head down against the floor,” says Baker. “I was so afraid, I groaned out, ‘I’m a U.S. soldier.’ And when I said that, he slammed my head again, one more time against the floor. And I groaned out one more time, I said, ‘I’m a U.S. soldier.’ And I heard them say, ‘Whoa, whoa, whoa,’ you know, like he wanted to, he was telling the other guy to stop.”
Bloodied and disoriented, Baker somehow made it back to his unit, and his first thought was to get hold of the videotape. “I said, ‘Go get the tape,’” recalls Baker. “‘They’ve got a tape. Go get the tape.’ My squad leader went to get the tape.”
Every extraction drill at Guantanamo was routinely videotaped, and the tape of this drill would show what happened. But Baker says his squad leader came back and said, “There is no tape.”
“That was the only time that I heard that a tape had gone missing,” says Riley, Baker’s platoon sergeant.
“Of all the tapes, this was probably the most important one that we should have kept,” adds England.
Baker started having a seizure that morning and was whisked to the Naval Hospital at Guantanamo. “[He looked like] he’d had the crap beat out of him. He had a concussion. I mean, it was textbook,” says Riley. “[His face} was blank. You know, a dead stare, like he was seeing you, but really looking through you.”

Where did I say otherwise?

Not at all. It means if one of us has done ill, we have all done wrong, and it’s a black mark not just on the person who did wrong, but on the uniform. It cheapens it. For someone to stand there in a uniform I wore with pride and torture and maim and kill and flout the very things I swore to uphold cheapens that uniform and degrades the service I and so many others gave in good faith. And what angers me most of all is that the commanders and politicians who ordered all this took absolutely no responsibility for these soldiers’ actions. A commander is responsible for every action good and bad that every soldier under them performs. To hang one of their own men out to dry without taking any responsibility…that person does not deserve command.

It seemed that you were explaining the attitude of military people who lash out at those criticising bad acts (torture, etc.).

Perhaps we’re not talking about the same thing, but this is what I thought the direction of the discussion was:

There are those who are saying that there is evidence of bad acts. Some posters have accused such critics of slandering the military in general. The response was:

And then came your explanation:

So it seemed to me that the thinking process you are describing goes like this:

A stain on one of us is a stain on all of us; therefore, if you accuse one of us of a bad act, you slander the entire military and you are a traitor.

I am in complete agreement with you here.