I just don’t see the point in compromising our ideals when we want another country to actually follow them in some fashion.
I mean, we are trying to help Iraq set up a liberal democracy, right? Right?
Aren’t we idealistic… 
“Liberal”? Hell, no! Not this administration.
Liberal in the governmental sense, not the policy sense.
I.E.: America under Bush is a liberal democracy with conservative policies.
That statement is no longer operative.
Our current objective is to extract our foot from a bear trap without inadvertently triggering a horrifyingly vicious and quickly-expanding holy war. We manage that trick, we can claim success.
I’m right with the OP. For every small slip that Bush makes, there’s 500 right-wing nutjobs who claim that the slip was intentional or that Clinton greased the floor.
I think Bush is a little dim, but quite honestly, I don’t expect Presidents to be much more than a pretty face. It’s the nutjobs that surround him that make me nervous.
We found chemical weapons in Iraq, Mister President! Only environazis believe in global warming, Mister President! Deficits are good because they prevent people from spending too much in the future, Mister President! Torture is unreliable and ineffective, but if we don’t have the right to use it then the terrorists will win, Mister President!
Boo.
Regards,
Shodan
Howl.
No, you’re more than moronic for all of us. Plenty shrill enough too. Remember this little bit? Ever the voice of reason. (Bolding by me)…
The press is OK when you buy them (from IMDB):
Nope. That’s not shrill. Not moronic either. Sorry.
On a related note: What to you guys do, have a special google search tool that you use to catalog all of Scylla’s posts? I’ve never seen a poster so often searched and quoted, and for so little cause.
In other words: Brutus. 
Do y’all have a different dictionary than the rest of us?
No need to search, I was a participant in the thread where that took place. When the comment came up (by guess who), I jst had to run back and grab a great example of Shrill and Moronic for all of us to savor once again.
P.S.
I’m not too sure about you either
Okay, I’m sorry for making a flip and quasi-driveby post to answer you Debaser. With more meat on the bones:
It is moronic to state that because a certain number of prisoners died due to our actions that that characterizes our armed forces in general. Only someone addicted to groupthink would possibly consider that to be an indictment of the military in general.
If, for instance, someone said “At several hospitals in the US there have been many cases of medical malpractice,” would that person be guilty of indicting all doctors everywhere, or even all doctors in the US? ’
If someone went on a hyper-angry lunatic binge while foaming at the mouth and claiming that someone was “slandering all doctors and as such didn’t deserve medical care” wouldn’t you question just where their anger, and agenda, were based? If someone is furious at someone for “indicting all doctors in the country” when no such thing happened, does it not point to something… odd, going on?
In addition, as I pointed out at the time of that trainwreck, there most certianly was evidence, mountains and mountains of it, including evidence of systemic failures and systemic coverups. That such evidence could be interpreted various ways was not being questioned, but to cast the debate in terms of ‘amerca hating’ ‘treason’ ‘betraying your country’ and ‘malicious lies’ was, indeed, both shrill and moronic.
And as Steve said nobody needs to search for these things. A rabid hateful angry lunatic tends to leave an impression in one’s mind.
/hijack
Without in any way defending what Scylla posted, I believe I can at least shed some light on the rationale (heh) behind it.
One of the things service members are indoctrinated to think is what one does, so do you all. You are not an individual. You are a team. You wear the same uniform, eat the same food, sleep at the same time, work toward the same goals. You are one unit. What reflects on one reflects on the whole. If you screw up, you have caused your entire unit to screw up, and that reflects badly not just on you but on everyone*.
So while I disagree with the statement, I understand why he thinks that way. As an ex-service member, I have to say I’m ashamed that the soldiers at Abu Gharib wore the same uniform as I.
*As dehumanizing as it sounds, it is designed to save lives. Working together as a cohesive unit makes you protective of each other.
Thanks for clearing up my ignorance on that topic Maureen.
I’m pretty sure you’d agree that the frothing, raging crazyness was somewhat beyond the pale, but you’ve at least helped me understand a possible motivation for such lunacy.
I have to say that actually clears up a few things for me as well. I have, on more then one occasion, been told that I shouldn’t debase “the military” when I have only railed against the actions of a few. I never understood why, no matter how many times I explained I was only condemning the actions of the guilty parties involved, the people I would be conversing with couldn’t get past it.
I didn’t participate in or read that thread. It’s a six page trainwreck that I’ve just skimmed through.
It’s completely dishonest for your to compare your statements in that thread to the hypothetical one you made about doctors. The doctor statement is limited, reasonable, and true. The statements in the thread are over the top, unreasonable, and false.
If you made a comparable statement about the US military to the one about doctors then you might have a point. Something like “At several prisons under control of the US military, there have been cases of abuse.” is a reasonable statement and not one that would have led Scylla to call you a traitor I bet.
However, that’s not what you was doing.
Here are a quick list of some choice gems:
This is all just from your first two posts in the thread.
After all of this, Scylla still didn’t call you a traitor. He only said that he would consider you a traitor if he couldn’t back up these accusations with proof.
You couldn’t.
Now you bring this baggage up in another thread, with no link to the original (I had to search to find it) and you grossly mis-represent your statements. I think we can safely add “liar” to your resume now, traitor.
Glad that after your ‘thorough skimming’ you’re going to spout off here.
We need more keyboard warriors.
Are you wrong or lying?
Over the top? They were all literally true. Unreasonable? As I showed with many, many cites an estimate of 24 was the absolute lowest reasonable estimate one could make. False? Have you done any fucking reading before babbling here, did you check on the multitude of links I provided in that thread and the one I link to when taking Uppy to task?
Are you disingenuous or dense?
That’s the semantic value of what I said, except that many people happened to be ‘abused’ badly enough that they died.
Are you stupid and ignorant or purposefully inflamatory?
-I pointed out with the Neitzche quote that we had a responsbility to be better than those we fought, after it was said that we could act in an abhorent manner because they did to.
-There were instances of torture and murder. People have been charged with it. At least one congressman who saw the photos has gone on record as confirming it.
-We have captured and tortured innocents. Not just many who were at Abu Graib and other places, but Maher Arar would disagree with your bullshit.
- We have decided in many ways to become what we are fighting. We deliberately torture prisoners.
Wow, my first two posts were factually accurate. Pull me up a chair, I feel faint.
Liar.
Your inability to do anything more than “skim” a thread does not constitute a failure to provide proof on mine. Lazy liar.
Again you’re lying? Idiot. Do you think that the posts in this thread will vanish because you’re a lying piece of shit? I didn’t bring it up in this thread you damned liar, and anybody who can fucking read already knows that. Are you really stupid enough to lie about what anybody can see with their own eyes?
You didn’t even read the fucking thread, you “skimmed” it, you intellectually dishonest whore.
No, but we can to yours. Fucking lying piece of shit.
And awfully cute with the ‘traitor’ bullshit, but I’m afraid that reading the news (as opposed to “skimming” it), doesn’t make one a traitor.
You’re pathetic.