I think it’s ridiuclous that anyone should have to stay alive against their will and to suffer simply because their friends and family want them to. That, to me, is selfish.
As far as the train jumpers go, there’s definitely better ways to go about it that don’t traumatize others quite so much and it’s assholish to off oneself in that manner.
Sounds fair to me. The person who suicided did not ask for his pain, either. Call it Karmic Debt if you like, or chaotic randomness – in other words, shit happens.
With all due respect, why should your father be exempt from that common type of pain?
Suicide By Train is actually very efficient – can’t find a cite, but ISTR it’s more than 90% successful, and painless if you do it right. (If you do it WRONG, however, you can fuck yourself up even worse than before. I’ve seen survivors of SBT…not pretty.)
I apologize if I gave the impression that I wasn’t including those sorts of people with other survivors. They indeed are, by sheer force of having been part of the actual suicide. However, the ones who are just on a train somewhere down the line and are cause an inconvenience by being late to somewhere, aren’t.
Now I understand there may be some extenuating circumstances for them (like picking up their kids from school, etc.), but I then think that falls under the same situation as any hold up in traffic. Again, I do get the initial anger and horror. That makes sense at that point.
That’s true. However, that doesn’t seem to be the most healthy course of action for those left behind to permanently take. For the two people I’ve known that have killed themselves, eventually pity seemed to be the best option. I’m sure this though is a mileage may vary thing.
True and but for the grace of Og, I haven’t actually been successful yet.
Although I certainly can’t condone her methodology, do you wonder what her life would’ve been like if she lived? I mean I can only speak for myself, but everyone that always wants me to stay alive never really has to deal with my reality (except my spouse). They don’t have to do anything with the fact that I’ve lost everything; no friends, no career, a marriage in name only, no kids, no outside interests, no religion, finances completely cratered and anything I’d ever believed in and hoped for completely gone.
Not to mention all the craziness (depression, anxiety attacks, Bi-Polar disorder, insomnia, agoraphobia) that’s eroded away the very essence of my being. So they want me to stay here, but there’s a total disconnect with any quality of life issues. I understand that, but really wish those around me would see that they couldn’t possibly do “anything humanely possible to help” or they wouldn’t get to have their own life. As such, I wish I just ever had the peace from them to allow me to accept that and have a way out. I know that’s not to be though, since human’s aren’t apparently built that way, but it’s a side of this equation that seems rarely addressed.
And you may not, nor if I ever take my own life, they may not either. I do recognize that, but it makes me sad. Especially in light of what I know ends up being the reality behind the help I’ve seen given. Leaving myself out of it as a possible special case due to bad blood within my family, the two friends I’ve known who killed themselves had many folks that accused them of some of the very things listed in this thread… attention whoring (in their cases, not true), being selfish, etc., when they sought assistance. Which means they really didn’t get what they were looking for. Briefly, I can say that pretty much as well. What then? Or is it just the nature of the beast and the mentally-struggling individuals need to be the ones to suck up and deal with it?
Once more, what about the lifetime of suffering they went through before the end? Does that matter nowhere in the equation? And I’d note that considering the aversion most people have to even the idea of suicide for one’s self, I’d think to attempt it must mean a whole lot of shit, but to go through with it must be something that is unfathomable for anyone unless they are there. So for my own part, I’d assume that means I simply don’t understand what they go through. Maybe I’m alone in that belief.
Also, if I never learn anything from these thread and the opinions expressed within, it’s that if I ever really can’t find anyway to cope, I’ll damn well make it look like an accident. Since I’ve always had the presence of mind to be concerned about how it’ll affect everyone after I’m gone, I think planning a different method would just be the reasonable thing to do. Otherwise, I can’t stand the thought that people that know what I am can disregard a life turned into nothing as something meant to be more than it is.
As well as I hope that if I ever do have any friends in the future that are in this much pain (and I pray not), there not continuing to struggle for another Og knows how many years to spare me. After all, it’ll be about them, no matter how much pain I’ll end up in as a result. I shudder now at the thought that the two who are gone might’ve stuck around longer to make things better for me. That’s such a terrifying thought for me, when I know just how bad it was and how fucked up they really, really were.
I hope they all are at peace now and I’m sorry for rambling so.
KGS, is that really how you want to enlighten others? It seems that user0001 is being fair in their assessment and it’s true that sort of end to your life should be avoided if at all possible. It’s also correct that it’s spread to people in horrible ways that it shouldn’t be. If we expect compassion for the plight folks like this face, then by extension we should show it to those affected in return.
user0001, I’m so very sorry that happened to your dad. It’s not right and for the most part, I’ve never considered killing myself in such a manner. But I have been bad off enough to understand that I’m not always in control of my facilities, so as I’ve said already in this thread, but for the grace of Og go I. I hope he’s comed to terms with the best that anyone can under such shitty circumstances and I agree with Brown Eyed Girl that there simply needs to be better resources all the way around.
Forgiven by who? God? The Universe? Those are the only entities which matter, when it comes to karmic deeds – assuming one believes in such things.
I’m sorry for your loss, but I would recommend that you forgive your sister anyway – not for her sake, but for yourself. Forgiveness is necessary to let go of the pain and move on, instead of allowing it to control your life. I’m not saying you should forgive her right away (you need to work through the pain first) but eventually, you can forgive her, when you are ready.
Sorry if I come across as harsh, it’s just easier for me to empathize with the suicider’s pain than the engineer’s. Also, I can’t help but think – if that’s the worst pain the engineer ever feels, I would envy that sort of life.
No, I completely understand desiring to give into that feeling. But remember, pain is only relative and it’s up to those who can fathom the weight that other people carry to extend our compassion. For the engineer, that may indeed be the worst thing he’s ever encountered and there’s probably been more than a small amount who are so burdened by what they feel is their fault, that they too end up taking their life over it.
Just hang in there. Perhaps help really is just around the corner and someday things will be better for all of us sufferers.
I certainly agree. I didn’t mean that such improvements wouldn’t be useful. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, just adding something.
A poster stated that if someone didn’t seek medical help he should be held responsible, you responded that medical help wasn’t necessarily available, and I added that even if it were readily available, a deeply depressed person might not seek it precisely because he is depressed, not because he’s some sort of uncaring and irresponsible person.
Well, then let me chime in again. I have been a passenger in a subway train that had just hit a suicidal jumper. And I’m no fucking survivor (*). If it had been the worst issue I had to face in my life, I would be the happiest man in the world. I didn’t feel any anger, nor any horror. For an instant I was slightly shocked and wondered if I should or could do something. Then I left the metro station and was late for a relatively important appointment. That’s the extent of the damages.
I’m willing to believe that your father (IIRC) was seriously disturbed by the accident he was involved in, but don’t overplay it ludicrously by pointing at a non existing crowd of passengers scared for life.
(*) And please, people, stop abusing this word or it will bring charges against you for aggravated rape.
Then they are deliberately hurting innocent people. That is contemptible, no matter what their sob story is.
See, it’s after responses like this that I thoroughly understand why there’s not complete help for people that suffer for mental illness.
ETA: clairobscur, you have your people crossed up. Broomstick’s sister committed suicide and it was user0001’s father that’s the train conductor.
Gotcha. Of course, I agree with you, too.
At least his family hasn’t sued the train or the operator yet. I had a couple people kill themselves in front of me. That’s not as big a deal as having the family of one of them later SUE me and the company over it.
I’ve long left that job, but I still have pending litigation over it. SIX YEARS LATER!
No one is truly innocent. And even if they were, NO person has any right whatsoever to judge the innocence or guilt of another person, unless they’re on jury duty.
…
Didn’t you just judge that no one is innocent?
Idiot.
Not the ones I’ve been involved in. Three, over the years.
Ah. Well, you see, my sister had NOT lost her friends, her career, her outside interests, her religion or her finances.
While she certainly had depression there were times when it was not as bad as others. She had had bad episodes before and pulled through them to a better state, even if not an ideal state.
She was losing her… well, not marriage, but the person she had lived with and loved for 7 years. The suicide note made it very plain part of the reason she was killing herself was to cause pain to that person. Saying “sorry” to rest of us did not make it OK.
Are you stronger for hanging on longer in some ways than my sister? I don’t know - exterior appearances are deceiving. It is entirely possible that, even with the trappings of success, my sister was in more pain than you have ever been - or maybe not. There’s no way to know, is there?
Yes, yes it clearly does matter, otherwise they wouldn’t kill themselves. So one person exchanges their lifetime of suffering for the lifetime grief of those that love and care about them. You know what, it sucks either way. I don’t deny that. There is no objective way to measure the pain of those involved and say “well, this person’s pain level is so high that it justifies inflicting pain on everyone around them”. It’s one way the universe sucks, that there are physically healthy people who want to die, and people who want to live who are dying of horrible diseases. It just ain’t fair.
I understand, on an intellectual level, why my sister did what she did. That doesn’t change how I feel about it.
How about “forgiven by the people you hurt with your actions”?
I’m sorry - did I actually ask you for advice on managing my grief? No, I don’t recall doing that. No, I’m not going to forgive her for murder, even if the victim was her own self. That doesn’t mean I have stopped loving her, or that I don’t miss her and wish her back, and it’s NOT “controlling my life”, I have NO idea where you picked up THAT notion!
If she had killed someone else in deliberate, cold blood I would not pat her on the back and say “there, there - it’s alright” because that would NOT be alright, not ever. I would not forgive her or pardon her for killing someone else, why would I forgive her for killing herself?
Forgiving her for killing herself, to me, would be the same as saying what destroyed had no value. Despite what she thought, she was valued by others. I will not invalidate the worth of her life by saying it’s somehow OK that that life was cut short. It’s not OK, and never will be.
I think I understand better what you’re saying and objectively, since I’m still here, I do assume that for whatever reason, your sister was suffering more than I have. Regardless, the whole sorry mess isn’t fair all the way around, because as you say, “there are physically healthy people who want to die, and people who want to live who are dying of horrible diseases.” This happened to my brother, from cancer, last year. And if there could have been any way that I could’ve stood in his place to hault his death, I would’ve done so in a heartbeat. Because he had a family and a full life still ahead of him and he didn’t want to die. I can say none of those things about myself.
You are totally right about how you feel. Again, I’m sorry for you and your sister’s loved one’s loss. Maybe, as I said before, things will improve for the people that find themselves struggling with these things, and by extension, everyone they touch.
Thank you for taking the time to explain your experiences.
I’m not the one with the father who was driving a train when a suicide occurred, I’m the one who’s sister locked herself in a garage with a car running until the fumes killed her.
Look, how people feel or react is going to vary. If you don’t like the word “survivor”, OK, and if it didn’t bother you that much I say good for you, you probably have a very healthy perspective on life.
My worst memory of suicide-by-train involved an instance where blood and body parts wound up sprayed against the windows of several cars, including the one I was in. It was, at best, very gross. I had the occasional nightmare over it for a year or two because it was an awful event, but even at the time I was more annoyed than anything else. Some other passengers, though, were crying and sobbing hysterically for hours while we waited for cops to arrive, medics to clean things up, and they had to replace the engineer because the poor man was hysterical.
Those of us who are mentally healthy and don’t have, for example, phobias about blood are going to have an unpleasant experience and memory, but we’ll get on with our lives without long term impact beyond an icky story. But not everyone is so healthy or resilient. That doesn’t mean they’re weak or whatever, they’re just different. Perhaps there’s a passenger who is suffering some sort of mental problem themself who is MUCH more greatly affected by such a thing than I am or you are. Just as I wouldn’t deny someone that who is depressed is in pain, I wouldn’t deny someone traumatized by a suicide THEIR pain, whether that trauma comes from knowing the suicide or having to see the suicide’s scattered body parts. Seeing a dismembered body IS upsetting, after all.
You asked me something along the lines of why I would ask my sister to remain alive and suffering yet more years. Well, it’s hope, really. You see, my sister had tried various medications, but they did not help her and inflicted bad side effects on her… but that was 20 years ago. Since then there have been new medications developed that might have helped her, and might have done so without terrible side effects. We wanted her to live in hopes that, first of all, some of the depression would lift (as I said, her mental state was not uniformly bad all those years she struggled with depression) and secondly, in hopes that the future would bring something that would help her.
I am very aware that depression such as my sister had is a disease, every bit as much as, say, diabetes or thyroid problems. It’s a chronic, life-threatening disease with no cure, only, at best, management and a lifetime of vigilance. We were aware for years that death was a possible outcome. It’s not that I wished my sister a lifetime of suffering, I wished she could have a lifetime without suffering.
Your brother died of cancer, and even though I know that at some point you must have realized it was terminal you did not want to lose him. We have learned so much about cancer, and so many people overcome it, that we hope those who suffer from the disease and the treatments will win through to a healthy life again, we hope those who are ill today will live long enough for a cure for their problems. Yes, at a certain point we have to let go because continued suffering becomes torture without purpose, but that doesn’t mean a person can’t be angry about the essential unfairness of it all, that a person can’t hope for enough life that the ill will live long enough to be healed. My sister’s disease killed her, as much as she killed herself, and I am angry she did not live long enough to be healed and find happiness. Would another 20 years have been enough? I don’t know - it is entirely possible that there is still nothing available to truly help her. That’s another thing that can never be known.